[C320-list] Electrical problem

[Chris Burti]

I think that I may be the one posting about the Exide commercial heavy truck
batteries that you are referring to.

True, our batteries are not labeled "*deep cycle*". While I am not a battery
engineer, I actually researched this purchase pretty carefully before
deciding which way to go and price wasn't the sole or deciding factor. What
I found leads me to believe that all a deep cycle battery essentially has
over a starting battery is fewer and thicker plates and all that a marine
battery has over a regular battery is marine lugs with a screw post and
better anti-vibration matting. Heavy trucks have many more power demands
than just starting, such as the frequent need to run lighting with the
engine off as well as many other accessory loads.  As a result of these
performance demands, both of those features are built into Exide's
commercial truck batteries (no marine lugs though).

Because of much higher sales volume and stiff competition, one might suppose
that heavy truck batteries might be priced significantly lower than "marine
deep cycle" batteries. And, one might suppose that labeling truck batteries
as 'deep cycle' might bleed off significant sales from the marine line which
might be a more profitable line the the more competitively priced heavy
truck line. Several seasons of frequent 50% draw down on our Exides has, so
far, seemed to support my screwy hypothesis about "deep cycle" labeling
within a manufacturer's line possibly being influenced by marketing
considerations as well as performance and design parameters. Regardless of
the accuracy of my suppositions, as of this writing, I think is fair to say
that our four seasons of enjoying the 50% price differential equates to 8
seasons at full price from an economist's perspective, so we are heading
into another 'gravy' season.

Just food for thought.
Fair winds,

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Kirk McCullough <kirk.mccullough at telus.net
> wrote:

> I don't think Mike's Exide batteries are deep cycle, they are basically
> truck starting batteries not intended to cycle down to low and too many
> times. Having said that, I would also recommend a separate starting battery
> and use a Link 10 0r Link 20 to monitor. Parallel the 4D's and never worry
> about starting with the 3rd battery never used for house loads.
>
> Kirk
> #124
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com
> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Hare
> Sent: 13 January 2010 14:53
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>
> Mike,
>
> Since you are in a warm climate I also think that the interstate truck
> batteries are a good option.
>
> I recommend adding an automotive AGM *starting* battery like an Exide
> Orbital or equivalent.  It is totally maint free and saves your 4Ds from
> the
> slow damage that engine starting currents inflict on deep cycles.  This
> isolation also reduces voltage spikes to your electronics while starting
> your engine.
>
> If you're going with a new pair of 4Ds, hardwire them in parallel and treat
> them as one big battery. You'll get noticably more usable house power from
> them, and never have to worry about starting your engine.
>
> AGMs are only a decent (but expensive) option if you meet several of the
> following criteria:
>
> 1. You have a good charger with an AGM setting preferrably.  I have a
> Charles-40 amp.
>
> 2. You have a high output alternator.
>
> 3. You spend a decent amount of time off of shore power.  We cruised for 15
> days without shore power and didn't have to conserve elec.
> 4. You live in a cold climate where you winterize the boat for more than
> 4mos.
>
> AGMs may hold a decent charge for 6mos, without needing a charge. They
> don't
> freeze, and accept much higher charging currents than flooded which is a
> benefit to those needing to recharge batteries quickly using the engine
> while on the hook.
>
> They don't really offer much in the way of additional life or capacity, so
> flooded batteries are still a good option if you don't have a powerful
> alternator.
>
> AGMs were so expensive I worry about them more than I did the flooded
> batteries.  ~ $900 for the pair.  Don't like that part so much.
>
> -jeff
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Warren Updike" <wupdike at hotmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:41:48
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>
> Mike, I replaced with Interstate 3 years ago and am very happy. I would
> have
> preferred the AGMs but the price didn't work for me. AGMs are, yes, lo/no
> maintenance; but, the charge rate and number of charge cycles are better
> meaning they will last longer.
>
> I found that Interstate had at least 2 different 4D batteries. The one I
> bought is the "SRM-4D Marine/RV - 30 months, 1314 cold cranking amps.
> Larger plates, more capacity the commercial model.  I bought them through
> my
> marina store for about $170. At the time the SRP was $178.
>
> I called the techs at Interstate. They were very helpful. They told me that
> the capacity was 195AH.  They also gave the the Pukart (sp?) value to use
> with my battery monitor.
>
> BTW, most battery mfgrs don't quote AH ratings on their batteries. An
> estimate can be made by multiplying the Reserve Capacity (RC) by 0.6.
>
> If I don't hit the lottery in the meantime, I'll likely purchase them
> again.
>
> FYI, Nigel Calder (I think it was,) did a study of the cost per AH of
> marine
> power.  Exotic systems aside, he concluded that the least cost is with wet
> cells, shore charger, and a gas generator.  Convenience was not a criteria
> for this study, just cost.
>
> Warren & Pattie Updike
> Catalina 320, #62, "Warr De Mar"
> Middle River, Chesapeake Bay
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Raphael [mailto:Rhapsody108 at q.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:43 PM
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>
> I have had really good luck with Interstate batteries, and their prices are
> much better than WM.  Check them out and see what you think.  They are the
> right size (assuming you have been using 2 4Ds).  An interment search is a
> good idea too, as you may find some cheaper sources...but do check the
> dimensions to avoid problems with fit in the boxes.
> Martin Raphael
> Rhapsody #108 (for 1 more day...just sold the boat!)
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Mike Paris<mailto:mparis495 at gmail.com>
>  To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>  Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:48 PM
>  Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>
>
>  I'm going to buy new batteries. Are there any potential problems with me
>  just replacing the batteries? Mainly, could I damage the new ones if there
>
>  is some unknown problem at the source of my electrical troubles.
>
>  Secondly, wet cell or AGM? The West Marine price for a wet cell is $292
> and
>  an AGM is $539. Is the AGM that much better?
>
>  Finally, should I replace the ProMariner with the Xantrex 20 just on
>  principle? It doesn't seem to be giving me problems but many have strong
>  feelings against the ProMariner.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Mike
>  #734
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Jeff Hare" <catalina at thehares.com<mailto:catalina at thehares.com>>
>  To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
>  Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 5:24 AM
>  Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>
>
>  > Mike,
>  >
>  > A couple notes.  When you disconnect the batteries to measure them you
> be
>  > sure to wait an hour of so to get their true voltage.  The 13.6v was
>  > likely still showing the effects of just being on the charger.   More
>  > likely, the voltage should be 12.5 or so after standing for a while.
>  >
>  > I'm not suspecting the charger here as much as just old batteries.  They
>
>  > show the classic signs of dying batteries.  They charge fine but have no
>
>  > CAPACITY.
>  >
>  > -Jeff
>  >
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: "Allan S. Field"
> <allan.field at verizon.net<mailto:allan.field at verizon.net>>
>  > Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:30:20
>  > To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
>  > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>  >
>  > Warren - it is Mike that I am thinking still has the stock ProMariner.
> If
>  > so, that probably is the culprit for his problems. - Allan
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From:
> c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:
> c320-list-bounces at lists.catal
> ina320.com>
>  > [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Warren
>  > Updike
>  > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:19 PM
>  > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>  > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>  >
>  > Allan, I don't have a ProMariner. Mine is a 50A LewMar that was on the
>  > boat
>  > when I bought it.  According to the manual, it will float the batteries
> at
>  > 14.1V, although I don't leave it on when there is no DC load. The
> charger
>  > relay for the starting battery kicks in at 13.7V.  Apparently, a
> constant
>  > voltage around 14V will not hurt the batteries.  The previous set of
>  > batteries lasted 7 years so I expect my charger works OK. ---Warren
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Allan S. Field [mailto:allan.field at verizon.net]
>  > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 6:50 PM
>  > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>  > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>  >
>  > Warren - Does the ProMariner reach and maintain float?  I thought that
> was
>  > the problem with it - it just kept on cooking and is not a true 3-stage
>  > charger.  But I could be wrong...  Where is Jeff Hare on this?! - Allan
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From:
> c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:
> c320-list-bounces at lists.catal
> ina320.com>
>  > [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Warren
>  > Updike
>  > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 6:39 PM
>   > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>  > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>  >
>  > Mike, according to the experts (not me,) the only way to assess the
> health
>  > of a wet cell deep cycle battery is to perform a load test on it.  All
>  > previous advice is useful.
>  >
>  > Water the batteries, clean all connections, and recharge. Monitor the
>  > charging voltage to be sure the charger is working correctly. When the
>  > charger enters float stage, disconnect and let the batteries sit for a
>  > day.
>  > After at least 24 hrs. test the voltage again on each battery. If still
>  > high, they're good.  If dropped by more than a tenth or two of a volt,
> you
>  > may have a problem. Have a load test done.
>  >
>  > As Karl suggests, you can test each cell with a hygrometer (compensate
> for
>  > temp.) to determine if one cell is weaker than others.  I recall that if
>
>  > the
>  > cell to cell difference is more than .20, the cell is likely weak.
>  >
>  > Four years is on the near side of lifetime for deep cell batteries
>  > constantly charged.  Consider that your charger could be the problem.
>  >
>  > If the tops of the plates inside the cells have been left high and dry
> for
>  > any length of time, chances are your battery is done and can't be
>  > recovered.
>  >
>  > Warren & Pattie Updike
>  > Catalina 320, #62, "Warr De Mar"
>  > Middle River, Chesapeake Bay
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: bruceheyman at cox.net<mailto:bruceheyman at cox.net>
> [mailto:bruceheyman at cox.net]
>  > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 9:20 AM
>  > To: Catalina List
>  > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>  >
>  > Mike,
>  > Also check the connections and the cables.  Several times I've come
> across
>  > a
>  > situation where a dodgey cable end or connection would handle the low
>  > current demands of the fridge and GPS but balk at the couple of hundred
>  > amps
>  > required by the starter motor.
>  > Bruce
>  > Somerset 671 SoCal
>  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: bruceheyman at cox.net<mailto:bruceheyman at cox.net>
>  > Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:51:37
>  > To: Catalina
> List<C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
>  > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>  >
>  > Mike,
>  > Check fluid level and add distilled water as required. Charge over night
>
>  > and
>  > then check each cell with a hydrometer.
>  > Bruce
>  > Somerset 671 SoCal
>  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: "Mike Paris" <mparis495 at gmail.com<mailto:mparis495 at gmail.com>>
>  > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 18:01:57
>   > To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
>  > Subject: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>  >
>  > Last weekend I went out for a day-sail. I usually put the battery sith
> on
>  > "both" but I forgot and left it on "2" for the trip. The engine started
>  > normally, I motored for about 30 minutes and then sailed for about 2 1/2
>  > hours. When I went to restart the engine it was dead (no sound when
>  > pushing
>  > the start button). I changed the battery switch to "both" and the the
>  > engine
>  > started right up. The electrical draw during the sail was a fully cooled
>  > refrigerator, the chartplotter and ST60 gauges. My boat is always
> plugged
>  > in
>  > to shorepower with charger on when in the slip. I have two wet-cell
>  > batteries that I believe are about four years old (I've owned the boat
> for
>  > 2
>  > 1/2 years). I'm not knowledable about electrical systems so I'm looking
>  > for
>  > advice as to steps to take to find possible problems when I head down
>  > there
>  > this weekend.
>  >
>  > Thanks to all,
>  > Mike P
>  > #734
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Chris Burti Farmville, NC