[C320-list] Electrical problem
Chris Burti
clburti at gmail.com
Tue Jan 19 06:51:57 PST 2010
No argument from me on the benefits of a starting battery. My recollection
is that the plates in my Exide COM-4D-P were comparable to those in the 4D
Nautilus Gold's I took out...but you can't trust my memory too much
anymore.
I do question the AH comparison as Exide's specs the COM-4D-P's much
higher than the Nautilus Gold deep cycle NG-4D's. Are you sure you didn't
have the F-4DLT which spec out closer to the NG-4D's?
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Kirk McCullough
<kirk.mccullough at telus.net>wrote:
> Lots of food there for sure. I have gone through 2 sets of Exide truck
> batteries and they work fine. When I purchased proper deep cycle batteries
> 3
> seasons ago, it was clear just by looking down into the battery that the
> plates are much much thicker. They deliver more amp-hours than the truck
> batteries and I expect that they will last longer, verdict not in on that
> count yet. I got about 5 years out of each set of Exides.
>
> I'm not dissing the truck batteries, they were good to me, but there is
> more
> to it than marketing. The running of lights on a truck without the engine
> on
> is the reason they use 4d and not group 27 or other smaller battery, but
> they don't use deep cycle 4d for truck applications.
>
> Anyway lots of reasons to buy lots of different types of batteries, and
> lots
> of opinions too.
>
> I feel much more confident with the deep cycle batteries because they seem
> to hold up better and I have the link 20 that proves to me they deliver
> more
> amp-hours. Also feel more confident with a separate starting battery, so
> crank up the fridge, leave the lights on all night and stay on the hook,
> the
> starting battery is always there.... I hope.
>
>
> Kirk
>
> #124
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com
> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Chris Burti
> Sent: 15 January 2010 06:26
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
>
> I think that I may be the one posting about the Exide commercial heavy
> truck
> batteries that you are referring to.
>
> True, our batteries are not labeled "*deep cycle*". While I am not a
> battery
> engineer, I actually researched this purchase pretty carefully before
> deciding which way to go and price wasn't the sole or deciding factor. What
> I found leads me to believe that all a deep cycle battery essentially has
> over a starting battery is fewer and thicker plates and all that a marine
> battery has over a regular battery is marine lugs with a screw post and
> better anti-vibration matting. Heavy trucks have many more power demands
> than just starting, such as the frequent need to run lighting with the
> engine off as well as many other accessory loads. As a result of these
> performance demands, both of those features are built into Exide's
> commercial truck batteries (no marine lugs though).
>
> Because of much higher sales volume and stiff competition, one might
> suppose
> that heavy truck batteries might be priced significantly lower than "marine
> deep cycle" batteries. And, one might suppose that labeling truck batteries
> as 'deep cycle' might bleed off significant sales from the marine line
> which
> might be a more profitable line the the more competitively priced heavy
> truck line. Several seasons of frequent 50% draw down on our Exides has, so
> far, seemed to support my screwy hypothesis about "deep cycle" labeling
> within a manufacturer's line possibly being influenced by marketing
> considerations as well as performance and design parameters. Regardless of
> the accuracy of my suppositions, as of this writing, I think is fair to say
> that our four seasons of enjoying the 50% price differential equates to 8
> seasons at full price from an economist's perspective, so we are heading
> into another 'gravy' season.
>
> Just food for thought.
> Fair winds,
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Kirk McCullough <
> kirk.mccullough at telus.net
> > wrote:
>
> > I don't think Mike's Exide batteries are deep cycle, they are basically
> > truck starting batteries not intended to cycle down to low and too many
> > times. Having said that, I would also recommend a separate starting
> battery
> > and use a Link 10 0r Link 20 to monitor. Parallel the 4D's and never
> worry
> > about starting with the 3rd battery never used for house loads.
> >
> > Kirk
> > #124
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com
> > [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Hare
> > Sent: 13 January 2010 14:53
> > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > Since you are in a warm climate I also think that the interstate truck
> > batteries are a good option.
> >
> > I recommend adding an automotive AGM *starting* battery like an Exide
> > Orbital or equivalent. It is totally maint free and saves your 4Ds from
> > the
> > slow damage that engine starting currents inflict on deep cycles. This
> > isolation also reduces voltage spikes to your electronics while starting
> > your engine.
> >
> > If you're going with a new pair of 4Ds, hardwire them in parallel and
> treat
> > them as one big battery. You'll get noticably more usable house power
> from
> > them, and never have to worry about starting your engine.
> >
> > AGMs are only a decent (but expensive) option if you meet several of the
> > following criteria:
> >
> > 1. You have a good charger with an AGM setting preferrably. I have a
> > Charles-40 amp.
> >
> > 2. You have a high output alternator.
> >
> > 3. You spend a decent amount of time off of shore power. We cruised for
> 15
> > days without shore power and didn't have to conserve elec.
> > 4. You live in a cold climate where you winterize the boat for more than
> > 4mos.
> >
> > AGMs may hold a decent charge for 6mos, without needing a charge. They
> > don't
> > freeze, and accept much higher charging currents than flooded which is a
> > benefit to those needing to recharge batteries quickly using the engine
> > while on the hook.
> >
> > They don't really offer much in the way of additional life or capacity,
> so
> > flooded batteries are still a good option if you don't have a powerful
> > alternator.
> >
> > AGMs were so expensive I worry about them more than I did the flooded
> > batteries. ~ $900 for the pair. Don't like that part so much.
> >
> > -jeff
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Warren Updike" <wupdike at hotmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:41:48
> > To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> >
> > Mike, I replaced with Interstate 3 years ago and am very happy. I would
> > have
> > preferred the AGMs but the price didn't work for me. AGMs are, yes, lo/no
> > maintenance; but, the charge rate and number of charge cycles are better
> > meaning they will last longer.
> >
> > I found that Interstate had at least 2 different 4D batteries. The one I
> > bought is the "SRM-4D Marine/RV - 30 months, 1314 cold cranking amps.
> > Larger plates, more capacity the commercial model. I bought them through
> > my
> > marina store for about $170. At the time the SRP was $178.
> >
> > I called the techs at Interstate. They were very helpful. They told me
> that
> > the capacity was 195AH. They also gave the the Pukart (sp?) value to use
> > with my battery monitor.
> >
> > BTW, most battery mfgrs don't quote AH ratings on their batteries. An
> > estimate can be made by multiplying the Reserve Capacity (RC) by 0.6.
> >
> > If I don't hit the lottery in the meantime, I'll likely purchase them
> > again.
> >
> > FYI, Nigel Calder (I think it was,) did a study of the cost per AH of
> > marine
> > power. Exotic systems aside, he concluded that the least cost is with
> wet
> > cells, shore charger, and a gas generator. Convenience was not a
> criteria
> > for this study, just cost.
> >
> > Warren & Pattie Updike
> > Catalina 320, #62, "Warr De Mar"
> > Middle River, Chesapeake Bay
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Raphael [mailto:Rhapsody108 at q.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:43 PM
> > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> >
> > I have had really good luck with Interstate batteries, and their prices
> are
> > much better than WM. Check them out and see what you think. They are
> the
> > right size (assuming you have been using 2 4Ds). An interment search is
> a
> > good idea too, as you may find some cheaper sources...but do check the
> > dimensions to avoid problems with fit in the boxes.
> > Martin Raphael
> > Rhapsody #108 (for 1 more day...just sold the boat!)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mike Paris<mailto:mparis495 at gmail.com>
> > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> >
> >
> > I'm going to buy new batteries. Are there any potential problems with me
> > just replacing the batteries? Mainly, could I damage the new ones if
> there
> >
> > is some unknown problem at the source of my electrical troubles.
> >
> > Secondly, wet cell or AGM? The West Marine price for a wet cell is $292
> > and
> > an AGM is $539. Is the AGM that much better?
> >
> > Finally, should I replace the ProMariner with the Xantrex 20 just on
> > principle? It doesn't seem to be giving me problems but many have strong
> > feelings against the ProMariner.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> > #734
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jeff Hare" <catalina at thehares.com<mailto:catalina at thehares.com>>
> > To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
> > Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 5:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> >
> >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > A couple notes. When you disconnect the batteries to measure them you
> > be
> > > sure to wait an hour of so to get their true voltage. The 13.6v was
> > > likely still showing the effects of just being on the charger. More
> > > likely, the voltage should be 12.5 or so after standing for a while.
> > >
> > > I'm not suspecting the charger here as much as just old batteries.
> They
> >
> > > show the classic signs of dying batteries. They charge fine but have
> no
> >
> > > CAPACITY.
> > >
> > > -Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Allan S. Field"
> > <allan.field at verizon.net<mailto:allan.field at verizon.net>>
> > > Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:30:20
> > > To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
> > > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> > >
> > > Warren - it is Mike that I am thinking still has the stock ProMariner.
> > If
> > > so, that probably is the culprit for his problems. - Allan
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
> > c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:
> > c320-list-bounces at lists.catal
> > ina320.com>
> > > [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Warren
> > > Updike
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:19 PM
> > > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> > >
> > > Allan, I don't have a ProMariner. Mine is a 50A LewMar that was on the
> > > boat
> > > when I bought it. According to the manual, it will float the
> batteries
> > at
> > > 14.1V, although I don't leave it on when there is no DC load. The
> > charger
> > > relay for the starting battery kicks in at 13.7V. Apparently, a
> > constant
> > > voltage around 14V will not hurt the batteries. The previous set of
> > > batteries lasted 7 years so I expect my charger works OK. ---Warren
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Allan S. Field [mailto:allan.field at verizon.net]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 6:50 PM
> > > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> > >
> > > Warren - Does the ProMariner reach and maintain float? I thought that
> > was
> > > the problem with it - it just kept on cooking and is not a true
> 3-stage
> > > charger. But I could be wrong... Where is Jeff Hare on this?! -
> Allan
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
> > c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:
> > c320-list-bounces at lists.catal
> > ina320.com>
> > > [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Warren
> > > Updike
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 6:39 PM
> > > To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> > >
> > > Mike, according to the experts (not me,) the only way to assess the
> > health
> > > of a wet cell deep cycle battery is to perform a load test on it. All
> > > previous advice is useful.
> > >
> > > Water the batteries, clean all connections, and recharge. Monitor the
> > > charging voltage to be sure the charger is working correctly. When the
> > > charger enters float stage, disconnect and let the batteries sit for a
> > > day.
> > > After at least 24 hrs. test the voltage again on each battery. If
> still
> > > high, they're good. If dropped by more than a tenth or two of a volt,
> > you
> > > may have a problem. Have a load test done.
> > >
> > > As Karl suggests, you can test each cell with a hygrometer (compensate
> > for
> > > temp.) to determine if one cell is weaker than others. I recall that
> if
> >
> > > the
> > > cell to cell difference is more than .20, the cell is likely weak.
> > >
> > > Four years is on the near side of lifetime for deep cell batteries
> > > constantly charged. Consider that your charger could be the problem.
> > >
> > > If the tops of the plates inside the cells have been left high and dry
> > for
> > > any length of time, chances are your battery is done and can't be
> > > recovered.
> > >
> > > Warren & Pattie Updike
> > > Catalina 320, #62, "Warr De Mar"
> > > Middle River, Chesapeake Bay
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bruceheyman at cox.net<mailto:bruceheyman at cox.net>
> > [mailto:bruceheyman at cox.net]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 9:20 AM
> > > To: Catalina List
> > > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > Also check the connections and the cables. Several times I've come
> > across
> > > a
> > > situation where a dodgey cable end or connection would handle the low
> > > current demands of the fridge and GPS but balk at the couple of
> hundred
> > > amps
> > > required by the starter motor.
> > > Bruce
> > > Somerset 671 SoCal
> > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bruceheyman at cox.net<mailto:bruceheyman at cox.net>
> > > Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:51:37
> > > To: Catalina
> > List<C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
> > > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > Check fluid level and add distilled water as required. Charge over
> night
> >
> > > and
> > > then check each cell with a hydrometer.
> > > Bruce
> > > Somerset 671 SoCal
> > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Mike Paris" <mparis495 at gmail.com<mailto:mparis495 at gmail.com>>
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 18:01:57
> > > To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
> > > Subject: [C320-list] Electrical problem
> > >
> > > Last weekend I went out for a day-sail. I usually put the battery sith
> > on
> > > "both" but I forgot and left it on "2" for the trip. The engine
> started
> > > normally, I motored for about 30 minutes and then sailed for about 2
> 1/2
> > > hours. When I went to restart the engine it was dead (no sound when
> > > pushing
> > > the start button). I changed the battery switch to "both" and the the
> > > engine
> > > started right up. The electrical draw during the sail was a fully
> cooled
> > > refrigerator, the chartplotter and ST60 gauges. My boat is always
> > plugged
> > > in
> > > to shorepower with charger on when in the slip. I have two wet-cell
> > > batteries that I believe are about four years old (I've owned the boat
> > for
> > > 2
> > > 1/2 years). I'm not knowledable about electrical systems so I'm
> looking
> > > for
> > > advice as to steps to take to find possible problems when I head down
> > > there
> > > this weekend.
> > >
> > > Thanks to all,
> > > Mike P
> > > #734
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Chris Burti Farmville, NC
>
>
--
Chris Burti Farmville, NC
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