[C320-list] Replacement Sails Dutchman A system

[David Nolte]

We keep ours tight too, and the filament does last a long time. We replace it when needed with similar gauge fishing line.

We, too, try to keep the boom off any bikinis that may be on the boat ;-)

David Nolte
Beach House #4


On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:14 PM, Chris Burti wrote:

> We keep ours tight. Replaced the monofilament after ten years due to UV
> deterioration, not wear. We have a bikini and need to keep the boom off
> of it.
> 
> Thanks, Chris Burti From: Scott Thompson
> Sent: 12/19/2012 6:19 PM
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement Sails Dutchman A system
> My boat also came with the Garhauer solid vang and the Dutchman C system
> ("clothesline") with two mono-filament lines. One of the first changes I
> made to the boat was replacing the springs in the vang with weaker ones
> (from Garhauer) so that it wasn't so difficult to pull the boom down to
> where it should be in light air. But that means that my vang is not
> quite as rigid as yours.
> 
> Regarding the Dutchman, I now have the A system with 3 monofilament
> lines and regret having made the change. With full battens, 2
> monofilament lines are enough, in my view, and I never had problems with
> the C system once I got it adjusted.
> 
> Furthermore, I am not comfortable leaving the topping lift tensioned
> when I put the boat away, since with a properly adjusted system this
> means that the monofilament lines are under tension and bearing a good
> bit of the weight of the mainsail. If you read the Dutchman instructions
> carefully you will note that with proper adjustment. Quoting from the A
> system manual:  "Basically, the flaked sail hangs off the control
> lines." I am concerned that this leads to premature failure of the
> monofilament and (more importantly) to chafe between the main and the
> monofilament when the sail is put away and covered. I'd rather have the
> control lines relaxed and the sail tied securely to the boom. As a
> consequence, I ease my topping lift whenever I put the boat away so that
> the main rests on the boom and the monofilament is slack. As a
> consequence, I don't really need the slits that were cut into my
> mainsail cover, which seem to let in dirt, even though they are zippered.
> 
> To keep the boom from moving around (which is important--see below) I
> support it using the main halyard secured to the end of the boom. You
> have to secure it somewhere, so why not the end of the boom! The
> monofilament control lines limit movement of the slack topping lift
> enough that it doesn't chafe or get caught on other parts of the rigging.
> 
> Your idea of using a pennant to effectively shorten the topping lift so
> that the control lines can be slack even while keeping a taught topping
> lift is clever.  It occurs to me that you could get the same effect by
> splicing a small hook directly into the topping lift a few feet up from
> the boom and just hooking that to the end of the boom when you put the
> boat away, leaving a small loop of slack topping lift. Or you could
> switch to the C system which does essentially the same thing, albeit
> with more complex hardware.
> 
> Note on keeping the boom stationary: Shortly after I purchased my boat
> (used) there was a post on this list about a boat where the vang bracket
> on the mast had failed. The cause was determined to be excessive wear
> due to the combination of improper vang assembly and constant minor
> motion of the boom as the boat rocked at mooring or in its slip. It's
> important that the stainless part of the vang fitting not be allowed to
> rub directly against the cast aluminum mast bracket! There should be a
> stainless washer in between. Without the washer, the vang will wear a
> groove into the center of the aluminum mast bracket just from minor
> motion when the boat is not in use. If this groove becomes deep enough
> the vang will "hang" in the groove when you ease the main away from
> center line, creating enormous torque on the bracket at the groove.
> Something has to give, and on the boat in question there was a failure
> of the bracket. When I inspected my boat, I found the washer was not
> installed properly, and that the groove was starting to form. I've had
> no problems since putting the washer into the proper location between
> the lower part of the vang and the bracket.
> 
> 
> On 12/18/2012 11:21 AM, resloat wrote:
>> 
>> Scott-I have a Garhauer solid vang which supports the boom so the
>> topping lift is just used for the Dutchman system.  It sounds like you
>> don't have that on your C320, so maybe this is more applicable to
>> those folks with a solid vang.
>> 
>> I did a new UK main and Genoa last season.  The main was loose footed
>> with 2 Dutchman lines on an A system.  My UK folks recommended the A
>> system as being easier to use, but I had to deal with a mainsail cover
>> I did not want to put slits in for the monofilament lines.  The
>> original Dutchman that came with the boat new was its System C with
>> the cam cleat at the boom end to move the monofilaments lines down and
>> back when putting on the mainsail cover.
>> 
>> The A system is much better than fooling around with the cam cleat
>> adjusting the monofilament lines.  I did not put slits in the original
>> main cover.
>> 
>> The trick I use when putting the mainsail cover on is to loosen the
>> topping lift line at the clutch until the monofilament lines come out
>> from under the mainsail cover just like on
>> the old C system when the cover is on.  I made up an 18" length of
>> 1/8" line with a clip at one end that attaches to a small shackle on
>> the end of the boom.  Then I tie the other end of the line with a
>> rolling hitch on to the topping lift line.  Adjust the hitch to make
>> the topping lift and monofilaments taught and you are done.  This
>> worked fine all season and the topping lift never came loose from the
>> rolling hitch.  You may have to play around with different types of
>> lines to use which get
>> traction on the Dutchman topping lift line.  Mine came with high tech
>> slippery line.
>> 
>> When I go out I just take off the main cover, untie the rolling hitch,
>> toss the line in the port locker, tighten the topping lift to a
>> pre-marked spot on the line and
>> raise the sail.
>> 
>> Bob Sloat
>> Savannah 894 (2002)
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Thompson"
>> <surprise at thompson87.com>
>> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 5:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement sails and other upgrades
>> 
>> 
>>> UK Annapolis talked me into cutting slits in my mainsail cover when I
>>> made
>>> the same switch. I've regretted it ever since because the slits let dirt
>>> through the cover and onto the sail. If I were to do it again I would go
>>> back to the pulley system, or else use my main halyard as boom support
>>> when not sailing and slack the topping lift so that I could put the
>>> cover
>>> on over the Dutchman lines.
>>> 
>>> Scott
>>> 
>>> On 12/17/2012 7:31 AM, Irving Grunes wrote:
>>>> The fixed "pennant" I really meant the Dutchman "A" systen where the
>>>> dutchman line positions are fixed and it attaches to the topping lift.
>>>> The topping lift  is tightened when ready to drop the sail and loosened
>>>> about 6 inches when sailing.with the loose foot on the sail
>>>> We have not cut slits in our sail cover yet and so we lower the topping
>>>> lift so that the sail cover can go on with the Dutchman lines eased
>>>> under
>>>> the sail cover.
>>>> Sorry for the misleading remark
>>>> Irv Grunes
>>>> 2001 #851
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Bruce Heyman<bruceheyman at cox.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Irv,
>>>>> With a fixed pennant how do you use it as a topping lift?  Or lower it
>>>>> to
>>>>> replace the dutchman lines?
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>> Somerset
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bruce Heyman
>>>>> 949 289-8400
>>>>> 
>>>>> Irving Grunes<igrunes at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Alan,
>>>>>> We had a new sail by UK Halsey in Annapolis
>>>>>> His recommendation was to use a three line Dutchman and use a fixed
>>>>>> Dutchman pennant rather than the the pulley system.
>>>>>> I can assure you that it is a pleasure because it really controls the
>>>>>> sail
>>>>>> extremely well when dropping it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And he used just slits in the sail reinforced with webbing for the
>>>>> Dutchman
>>>>>> holes in the sail instead of the plastic discs.
>>>>>> And we bought a full batten and loose foot as well.
>>>>>> He also recommended the plastic sail track but since our boat is in a
>>>>>> partnership, we did not go for the extra $1000. the track would cost,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> it sure works well where we have seen it.
>>>>>> Irv Grunes
>>>>>> 2001 #851
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Alan
>>>>>> Goodman<goodmanalanlee at hotmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Irv - now that you mention it (it never crossed my mind) on would
>>>>>>> think
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> three line Dutchman would handle the sail better when flaking.  I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>> seen
>>>>>>> three lines on C42s but does anyone actually have three lines on a
>>>>>>> C320?
>>>>>>>  Would that raise the price to $750 for installing the plastic
>>>>>>> disks
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>  ouch.    Alan Hull 67 Holland MI
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:02:09 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: Irving Grunes<igrunes at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement sails and other upgrades
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>> <CAE+H+CJ5spsUf5uQMvdy1CPva=
>>>>>>> CXAOQgO_6pk8O0aO1WorjzmQ at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>>>> If going new, I suggest 3 line Dutchman and loose footed main.
>>>>>>>> Irv Grunes
>>>>>>>> #851
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Alan Goodman<
>>>>>>> goodmanalanlee at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I have the original sails (hull 67 1994) and while I considered
>>>>> moving
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> a bigger boat (C400), I decided to keep the C320.  So now I am
>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>> have to make the expense (is anything spent on a boat ever an
>>>>>>> investment?)
>>>>>>>>> for several upgrades.  I would appreciate your feedback as to
>>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>> go and
>>>>>>>>> what you may have paid for a similar upgrade.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I almost pulled the trigger earlier this month while Catalina
>>>>>>>>> Direct
>>>>>>> had a
>>>>>>>>> 15% off discount on sails, but with only a day left before the
>>>>>>>>> sale
>>>>>>> expired
>>>>>>>>> I felt rushed and did not order them.  CD sells Ullman sails
>>>>>>>>> from a
>>>>>>> Ventura
>>>>>>>>> CA loft.  I am a Great Lakes cruiser (similar to coastal ocean
>>>>>>> conditions),
>>>>>>>>> so I am interested in Dacron, about 7.0 oz.  I currently have full
>>>>>>> battens
>>>>>>>>> and a bolt rope foot.  I also have the Dutchman flaking system,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>> CD
>>>>>>>>> wanted $500 extra to install the plastic disks/grommets in the
>>>>>>>>> sail.
>>>>>>>  That
>>>>>>>>> seemed a bit excessive to me.  Most likely I will be moving to a
>>>>> bigger
>>>>>>>>> boat in about 4 years (full retirement afloat), if that affects
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> recommendations.  Do any of the racers on the forum have gently
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> Dacron
>>>>>>>>> sails they might wish to part with?  Does anyone single hand a
>>>>>>>>> slab
>>>>>>> flaked
>>>>>>>>> main without a Dutchman or Lazy jacks?   The head sail seems to me
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be an
>>>>>>>>> easier choice (less decisions).  Same fabric weight as the main,
>>>>> foam
>>>>>>> luff,
>>>>>>>>> leach and foot cords, etc.  I am looking for thoughts based upon
>>>>> value
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> i.e. price to performance.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I also am going to have new interior cushions made for the salon.
>>>>>  Any
>>>>>>>>> recommendations as to foam density, foam thickness, other issues I
>>>>> may
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> be thinking about?  My OEM settee and dinette cushions extend
>>>>>>>>> beyond
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> leading edge (i.e. overhang) of the fiberglass bench structure but
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> provide any support.  The edge of these cushions simply roll down
>>>>>>> behind my
>>>>>>>>> calves and are uncomfortable.  Anyone have new cushions made that
>>>>> are
>>>>>>> flush
>>>>>>>>> with the leading edge of the fiberglass bench structure?  Any
>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>>> about why it might be a good or bad idea?  Also, anyone have any
>>>>> price
>>>>>>>>> information as to what I should expect to pay (I'll be taking the
>>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>>>> cushions around for quotes right after the new year).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Lastly, I bought a tufted topper for the aft berth cushions but
>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>> don't find the sleeping conditions comfortable.  So I will
>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> purchasing a mattress.  Options are foam or coil spring (I also
>>>>> tried a
>>>>>>>>> Coleman air mattress, but it felt way too cold in the early spring
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> late
>>>>>>>>> fall).  Again, any advice thoughts appreciated.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> That probably exhausts my boat budget for the upcoming year  ...
>>>>>  air
>>>>>>>>> conditioning and a below deck autopilot are in my dreams.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>> 
>>