[C320-list] Replacement Sails Dutchman A system

[John Meyers]

I tried something last summer that really made me happy. I was on a beam
reach with 20 knot winds. I brought down the mail while still on the beam
reach and the boom was out. Worked VERY well and glad I had the the
Dutchman. After it came down, which happened very quickly and smoothly, I
brought the boom in and secured the sail.

My set up is exactly like Warren's description.

John Meyers
Wind Chime 406
Muskegon, MI

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Warren Updike <wupdike at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Scott, I'm not familiar with the various Dutchman configs, just ours which
> I'll attempt to describe: it is a two block system, there is a continuous
> line on which the two Dutchman blocks are attached and the free part of the
> line runs freely through each Dutchman block. At the upper end is a small
> single turning sheave with a rotating eye.  At the lower end is a fiddle
> block with cam cleat.  The topping lift is attached to the small sheave at
> top and kept taught when not sailing. The rotating eye allows the topping
> lift to twist as it needs without transferring the twist down the rest of
> the lift.  The fiddle and cam at bottom allows the tension on the
> monofilament lines to be eased when not striking the main even while the
> topping lift is taught.
>
> After the sail is up and drawing, I slacken the topping lift.  Before
> striking the main, I tighten the topping lift, adjust the Dutchman at the
> fiddle block to tighten the monofilament, then drop it.  Once down and
> flaked, I use the fiddle/cam to relieve the tension on the monofilament.
>  It
> all works fine as long as the monofilament lines are properly tensioned and
> I'm not too far off the wind when I drop the main.  Oh, and I try to be a
> few degrees to port of the wind so the sail slides don't hang up on the
> gate
> screws.
>
> So much to remember.  So few brain cells left with which to work.
>
> Warren & Pattie Updike
> 1994 C320 #62 "Warr De Mar"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Thompson [mailto:surprise at thompson87.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:19 PM
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement Sails Dutchman A system
>
> My boat also came with the Garhauer solid vang and the Dutchman C system
> ("clothesline") with two mono-filament lines. One of the first changes I
> made to the boat was replacing the springs in the vang with weaker ones
> (from Garhauer) so that it wasn't so difficult to pull the boom down to
> where it should be in light air. But that means that my vang is not quite
> as
> rigid as yours.
>
> Regarding the Dutchman, I now have the A system with 3 monofilament lines
> and regret having made the change. With full battens, 2 monofilament lines
> are enough, in my view, and I never had problems with the C system once I
> got it adjusted.
>
> Furthermore, I am not comfortable leaving the topping lift tensioned when I
> put the boat away, since with a properly adjusted system this means that
> the
> monofilament lines are under tension and bearing a good bit of the weight
> of
> the mainsail. If you read the Dutchman instructions carefully you will note
> that with proper adjustment. Quoting from the A system manual:  "Basically,
> the flaked sail hangs off the control lines." I am concerned that this
> leads
> to premature failure of the monofilament and (more importantly) to chafe
> between the main and the monofilament when the sail is put away and
> covered.
> I'd rather have the control lines relaxed and the sail tied securely to the
> boom. As a consequence, I ease my topping lift whenever I put the boat away
> so that the main rests on the boom and the monofilament is slack. As a
> consequence, I don't really need the slits that were cut into my mainsail
> cover, which seem to let in dirt, even though they are zippered.
>
> To keep the boom from moving around (which is important--see below) I
> support it using the main halyard secured to the end of the boom. You have
> to secure it somewhere, so why not the end of the boom! The monofilament
> control lines limit movement of the slack topping lift enough that it
> doesn't chafe or get caught on other parts of the rigging.
>
> Your idea of using a pennant to effectively shorten the topping lift so
> that
> the control lines can be slack even while keeping a taught topping lift is
> clever.  It occurs to me that you could get the same effect by splicing a
> small hook directly into the topping lift a few feet up from the boom and
> just hooking that to the end of the boom when you put the boat away,
> leaving
> a small loop of slack topping lift. Or you could switch to the C system
> which does essentially the same thing, albeit with more complex hardware.
>
> Note on keeping the boom stationary: Shortly after I purchased my boat
> (used) there was a post on this list about a boat where the vang bracket on
> the mast had failed. The cause was determined to be excessive wear due to
> the combination of improper vang assembly and constant minor motion of the
> boom as the boat rocked at mooring or in its slip. It's important that the
> stainless part of the vang fitting not be allowed to rub directly against
> the cast aluminum mast bracket! There should be a stainless washer in
> between. Without the washer, the vang will wear a groove into the center of
> the aluminum mast bracket just from minor motion when the boat is not in
> use. If this groove becomes deep enough the vang will "hang" in the groove
> when you ease the main away from center line, creating enormous torque on
> the bracket at the groove.
> Something has to give, and on the boat in question there was a failure of
> the bracket. When I inspected my boat, I found the washer was not installed
> properly, and that the groove was starting to form. I've had no problems
> since putting the washer into the proper location between the lower part of
> the vang and the bracket.
>
>
> On 12/18/2012 11:21 AM, resloat wrote:
> >
> > Scott-I have a Garhauer solid vang which supports the boom so the
> > topping lift is just used for the Dutchman system.  It sounds like you
> > don't have that on your C320, so maybe this is more applicable to
> > those folks with a solid vang.
> >
> > I did a new UK main and Genoa last season.  The main was loose footed
> > with 2 Dutchman lines on an A system.  My UK folks recommended the A
> > system as being easier to use, but I had to deal with a mainsail cover
> > I did not want to put slits in for the monofilament lines.  The
> > original Dutchman that came with the boat new was its System C with
> > the cam cleat at the boom end to move the monofilaments lines down and
> > back when putting on the mainsail cover.
> >
> > The A system is much better than fooling around with the cam cleat
> > adjusting the monofilament lines.  I did not put slits in the original
> > main cover.
> >
> > The trick I use when putting the mainsail cover on is to loosen the
> > topping lift line at the clutch until the monofilament lines come out
> > from under the mainsail cover just like on the old C system when the
> > cover is on.  I made up an 18" length of 1/8" line with a clip at one
> > end that attaches to a small shackle on the end of the boom.  Then I
> > tie the other end of the line with a rolling hitch on to the topping
> > lift line.  Adjust the hitch to make the topping lift and
> > monofilaments taught and you are done.  This worked fine all season
> > and the topping lift never came loose from the rolling hitch.  You may
> > have to play around with different types of lines to use which get
> > traction on the Dutchman topping lift line.  Mine came with high tech
> > slippery line.
> >
> > When I go out I just take off the main cover, untie the rolling hitch,
> > toss the line in the port locker, tighten the topping lift to a
> > pre-marked spot on the line and raise the sail.
> >
> > Bob Sloat
> > Savannah 894 (2002)
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Thompson"
> > <surprise at thompson87.com>
> > To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 5:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement sails and other upgrades
> >
> >
> >> UK Annapolis talked me into cutting slits in my mainsail cover when I
> >> made the same switch. I've regretted it ever since because the slits
> >> let dirt through the cover and onto the sail. If I were to do it
> >> again I would go back to the pulley system, or else use my main
> >> halyard as boom support when not sailing and slack the topping lift
> >> so that I could put the cover on over the Dutchman lines.
> >>
> >> Scott
> >>
> >> On 12/17/2012 7:31 AM, Irving Grunes wrote:
> >>> The fixed "pennant" I really meant the Dutchman "A" systen where the
> >>> dutchman line positions are fixed and it attaches to the topping lift.
> >>> The topping lift  is tightened when ready to drop the sail and
> >>> loosened about 6 inches when sailing.with the loose foot on the sail
> >>> We have not cut slits in our sail cover yet and so we lower the
> >>> topping lift so that the sail cover can go on with the Dutchman
> >>> lines eased under the sail cover.
> >>> Sorry for the misleading remark
> >>> Irv Grunes
> >>> 2001 #851
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Bruce Heyman<bruceheyman at cox.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Irv,
> >>>> With a fixed pennant how do you use it as a topping lift?  Or lower
> >>>> it to replace the dutchman lines?
> >>>> Bruce
> >>>> Somerset
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruce Heyman
> >>>> 949 289-8400
> >>>>
> >>>> Irving Grunes<igrunes at gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Alan,
> >>>>> We had a new sail by UK Halsey in Annapolis His recommendation was
> >>>>> to use a three line Dutchman and use a fixed Dutchman pennant
> >>>>> rather than the the pulley system.
> >>>>> I can assure you that it is a pleasure because it really controls
> >>>>> the sail extremely well when dropping it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And he used just slits in the sail reinforced with webbing for the
> >>>> Dutchman
> >>>>> holes in the sail instead of the plastic discs.
> >>>>> And we bought a full batten and loose foot as well.
> >>>>> He also recommended the plastic sail track but since our boat is
> >>>>> in a partnership, we did not go for the extra $1000. the track
> >>>>> would cost, but it sure works well where we have seen it.
> >>>>> Irv Grunes
> >>>>> 2001 #851
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Alan
> >>>>> Goodman<goodmanalanlee at hotmail.com
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Irv - now that you mention it (it never crossed my mind) on would
> >>>>>> think
> >>>> a
> >>>>>> three line Dutchman would handle the sail better when flaking.  I
> >>>>>> have
> >>>> seen
> >>>>>> three lines on C42s but does anyone actually have three lines on
> >>>>>> a C320?
> >>>>>>   Would that raise the price to $750 for installing the plastic
> >>>>>> disks ...
> >>>>>>   ouch.    Alan Hull 67 Holland MI
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Message: 4
> >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:02:09 -0500
> >>>>>>> From: Irving Grunes<igrunes at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement sails and other upgrades
> >>>>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>>> <CAE+H+CJ5spsUf5uQMvdy1CPva=
> >>>>>> CXAOQgO_6pk8O0aO1WorjzmQ at mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alan
> >>>>>>> If going new, I suggest 3 line Dutchman and loose footed main.
> >>>>>>> Irv Grunes
> >>>>>>> #851
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Alan Goodman<
> >>>>>> goodmanalanlee at hotmail.com>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have the original sails (hull 67 1994) and while I considered
> >>>> moving
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> a bigger boat (C400), I decided to keep the C320.  So now I am
> >>>> going to
> >>>>>>>> have to make the expense (is anything spent on a boat ever an
> >>>>>> investment?)
> >>>>>>>> for several upgrades.  I would appreciate your feedback as to
> >>>>>>>> how to
> >>>>>> go and
> >>>>>>>> what you may have paid for a similar upgrade.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I almost pulled the trigger earlier this month while Catalina
> >>>>>>>> Direct
> >>>>>> had a
> >>>>>>>> 15% off discount on sails, but with only a day left before the
> >>>>>>>> sale
> >>>>>> expired
> >>>>>>>> I felt rushed and did not order them.  CD sells Ullman sails
> >>>>>>>> from a
> >>>>>> Ventura
> >>>>>>>> CA loft.  I am a Great Lakes cruiser (similar to coastal ocean
> >>>>>> conditions),
> >>>>>>>> so I am interested in Dacron, about 7.0 oz.  I currently have
> >>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>> battens
> >>>>>>>> and a bolt rope foot.  I also have the Dutchman flaking system,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>> CD
> >>>>>>>> wanted $500 extra to install the plastic disks/grommets in the
> >>>>>>>> sail.
> >>>>>>   That
> >>>>>>>> seemed a bit excessive to me.  Most likely I will be moving to
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>> bigger
> >>>>>>>> boat in about 4 years (full retirement afloat), if that affects
> >>>>>>>> your recommendations.  Do any of the racers on the forum have
> >>>>>>>> gently used
> >>>>>> Dacron
> >>>>>>>> sails they might wish to part with?  Does anyone single hand a
> >>>>>>>> slab
> >>>>>> flaked
> >>>>>>>> main without a Dutchman or Lazy jacks?   The head sail seems to me
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> be an
> >>>>>>>> easier choice (less decisions).  Same fabric weight as the
> >>>>>>>> main,
> >>>> foam
> >>>>>> luff,
> >>>>>>>> leach and foot cords, etc.  I am looking for thoughts based
> >>>>>>>> upon
> >>>> value
> >>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> i.e. price to performance.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I also am going to have new interior cushions made for the salon.
> >>>>   Any
> >>>>>>>> recommendations as to foam density, foam thickness, other
> >>>>>>>> issues I
> >>>> may
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> be thinking about?  My OEM settee and dinette cushions extend
> >>>>>>>> beyond
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> leading edge (i.e. overhang) of the fiberglass bench structure
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>> do
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> provide any support.  The edge of these cushions simply roll
> >>>>>>>> down
> >>>>>> behind my
> >>>>>>>> calves and are uncomfortable.  Anyone have new cushions made
> >>>>>>>> that
> >>>> are
> >>>>>> flush
> >>>>>>>> with the leading edge of the fiberglass bench structure?  Any
> >>>> thoughts
> >>>>>>>> about why it might be a good or bad idea?  Also, anyone have
> >>>>>>>> any
> >>>> price
> >>>>>>>> information as to what I should expect to pay (I'll be taking
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>> existing
> >>>>>>>> cushions around for quotes right after the new year).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Lastly, I bought a tufted topper for the aft berth cushions but
> >>>> still
> >>>>>>>> don't find the sleeping conditions comfortable.  So I will
> >>>> definitely
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>> purchasing a mattress.  Options are foam or coil spring (I also
> >>>> tried a
> >>>>>>>> Coleman air mattress, but it felt way too cold in the early
> >>>>>>>> spring
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> late
> >>>>>>>> fall).  Again, any advice thoughts appreciated.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That probably exhausts my boat budget for the upcoming year  ...
> >>>>   air
> >>>>>>>> conditioning and a below deck autopilot are in my dreams.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
>
>
>