[C320-list] Hurth Tranny Perkins Engine

Fri Oct 17 13:33:24 PDT 2014

I have the original factory warning tags which came with my boat when new. regarding the Hurth transmission the tag clearly states it may be either in neutral or reverse, but never ever in forward.  I have a Perkins engine. the hearth transmission is lubricated by a bath containing automatic transmission fluid

Alan Goodman
734.740.1256
Sent from my semi-smart phone. Please excuse any typos.

<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com </div><div>Date:10/17/2014  3:34 PM  (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com </div><div>Subject: C320-list Digest, Vol 2175, Issue 1 </div><div>
</div>
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: neutral or in gear while under sail (Gene Helfman)
   2. Re: neutral or in gear while under sail (clburti at gmail.com)
   3. Re: neutral or in gear while under sail (Kenny Geist)
   4. Re: Yanmar exhaust architecture (colloua5 at aol.com)
   5. Re: neutral or in gear while under sail (Martin Rosenberg)
   6. Re: neutral or in gear while under sail (jim brown)
   7. Re: Yanmar exhaust architecture (Danny Jensen)
   8. Re: neutral or in gear while under sail (Jon Vez)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 19:29:46 -0700
From: Gene Helfman <genehelfman at gmail.com>
To: C320-List at catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail
Message-ID:
        <CAG63oPMp8uo7bE0w7C6AJk+7VP20i=em9TnvEEvsctJgEW9bng at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 Had enough wind today to hear the prop rotating while on a reach.  Ensuing
discussion with two fellow sailors on the boat at the time.  One maintains
that tranny should be in reverse when under sail because turning shaft
insufficiently lubricated when engine is not on. I've always put it in
neutral to reduce drag and figure since the cooling water is on the drip
drip drip should prevent any real shaft friction.

Opinions? (3GM30F, Satori, #398, 1997)

--
Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia
PERMANENT address:
    498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
    (360) 468-2136
    genehelfman at gmail.com

"You noticed nobody gives a damn about beached minnows."

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 03:42:00 +0000
From: <clburti at gmail.com>
To: 320 <C320-List at catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail
Message-ID: <54409178.cd93e00a.4857.084b at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Often debated, convincing arguments either way, but here is the official word from Yanmar in the form of their service advisory.

Advisory Number: MSA08-003:

DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs
TO: All Marine Distributors
SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS:

All Sailboat Engines

We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear position while sailing with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a reminder; Yanmar requires that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running) the transmission  shifter must be in the neutral position or internal damage to the gear or sail-drive will result. This damage will not be covered by Yanmar?s Limited Warranty. Please instruct customers and dealers who deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the correct (Neutral) position for the marine gear while sailing.

If the customer desires that the propeller shaft not spin while sailing, either a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable device may be used. However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the selection, installation, or operation of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service advisory ?MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection? for additional information.

If you have any questions regarding this advisory please contact a Customer Support representative.

______________________________________________________________

This advisory does not apply to hydraulic gear boxes or the few models that used Hurth/ZF.

Fair Winds
Chris Burti
Commitment
Catalina 320, #867

From: Gene Helfman
Sent: ?Thursday?, ?October? ?16?, ?2014 ?10?:?29? ?PM
To: 320

 Had enough wind today to hear the prop rotating while on a reach.  Ensuing
discussion with two fellow sailors on the boat at the time.  One maintains
that tranny should be in reverse when under sail because turning shaft
insufficiently lubricated when engine is not on. I've always put it in
neutral to reduce drag and figure since the cooling water is on the drip
drip drip should prevent any real shaft friction.

Opinions? (3GM30F, Satori, #398, 1997)

--
Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia
PERMANENT address:
    498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
    (360) 468-2136
    genehelfman at gmail.com

"You noticed nobody gives a damn about beached minnows."

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:42:15 -0400
From: "Kenny Geist" <Kennyge at prodigy.net>
To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail
Message-ID: <00b301cfea07$c8aa0510$59fe0f30$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="UTF-8"

What is Westerbek's policy?

Kenny Geist
Kennyge at Prodigy.net
Windrifter 96 C320

-----Original Message-----
From: C320-list [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of clburti at gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 11:42 PM
To: 320
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail

Often debated, convincing arguments either way, but here is the official word from Yanmar in the form of their service advisory.

Advisory Number: MSA08-003:

DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs
TO: All Marine Distributors
SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS:

All Sailboat Engines

We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear position while sailing with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a reminder; Yanmar requires that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running) the transmission  shifter must be in the neutral position or internal damage to the gear or sail-drive will result. This damage will not be covered by Yanmar?s Limited Warranty. Please instruct customers and dealers who deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the correct (Neutral) position for the marine gear while sailing.

If the customer desires that the propeller shaft not spin while sailing, either a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable device may be used. However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the selection, installation, or operation of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service advisory ?MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection? for additional information.

If you have any questions regarding this advisory please contact a Customer Support representative.

______________________________________________________________

This advisory does not apply to hydraulic gear boxes or the few models that used Hurth/ZF.

Fair Winds
Chris Burti
Commitment
Catalina 320, #867

From: Gene Helfman
Sent: ?Thursday?, ?October? ?16?, ?2014 ?10?:?29? ?PM
To: 320

 Had enough wind today to hear the prop rotating while on a reach.  Ensuing discussion with two fellow sailors on the boat at the time.  One maintains that tranny should be in reverse when under sail because turning shaft insufficiently lubricated when engine is not on. I've always put it in neutral to reduce drag and figure since the cooling water is on the drip drip drip should prevent any real shaft friction.

Opinions? (3GM30F, Satori, #398, 1997)

--
Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia PERMANENT address:
    498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
    (360) 468-2136
    genehelfman at gmail.com

"You noticed nobody gives a damn about beached minnows."
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8399 - Release Date: 10/16/14

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:13:04 -0400
From: colloua5 at aol.com
To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Yanmar exhaust architecture
Message-ID: <8D1B823386EDC75-1478-1B761 at webmail-vd006.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

These part numbers are they from yamar direct ?

Thanks for all the info

on another note .....my muffler box failed, I am going to clean it, re-epoxy the joint where the two meet and then fiberglass mesh the two together on the outside  completing the sealed unit. From what I read the new units seem as poorly designed as the original.

I am contemplating having one made of brass with  soldered joints over the winter, pressure test it and install, the cost should be equivalent to the fiberglass replacement unit

-----Original Message-----
From: tharrison <tharrison at innovations-plus.com>
To: C320-List <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 16, 2014 11:09 am
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Yanmar exhaust architecture

One item to note is hose size. Mine was 1 5/8.

There is a reverse direction joint between the elbow and mixing elbow. Play with
this piece and the final orientation.

124070-13520 mixing elbow
128370-13610 elbow
104214-13580 joint

Gasket, I do not have this part number.

High temp gasket seal - red from NaPa

Some anti seize compound for on the joint threads.

That is all I can thing about.

Others please verify the part numbers. I fairly sure.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 16, 2014, at 6:53 AM, Graeme Clark <cg at skyflyer.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Timothy
>
> Thats exactly why I wanted a photo or diagram (or even part numbers) , so I
can get an idea of how the thing is put together following what would appear to
be an early experiment on mine!
>
> For example at what point of the exhast doe sthe water injection take place?
Itr seems to me that the cooling water exits on the port sode of the engine and
the exhaust on the starboard side, so some form of connection needs to be made
between the two. The ?standard? Yanmar exhast injection elbow has the water
entering the exhaust just a few inches from the engine block, i.e., really
early; mine has the water enetering about 18 inches downstream, hence,
presumably the need to lag the prt beforehand which receives no cooling effect!
>
> Regards
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:27:53 -0400
> From: Timothy Osburn <tosburn1958 at gmail.com>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Yanmar exhaust architecture
> Message-ID:
>    <CAJEc2k1MKDpjndsjfeZcPNCAAC3xWk0nXZoogQ=6dBmdvtE6ww at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I just had mine replaced last month and the mechanic was able to use off
> the shelf parts. I have the same engine.
>> On Oct 14, 2014 5:37 PM, "Graeme Clark" <cg at skyflyer.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I have just transitioned from one/third shared ownership of hull #303 with
>> a Westerbeke to sole ownership of hull # 366 which (I have been told) is
>> one of the very first to be fitted with a Yanmar 3GM30F engine.
>>
>> The exhaust arrangement/architecture is very different from the Westerbeke
>> and I wondered if this was now ?standard? in all Yanmar engined 320s or has
>> it been superseded with something else?
>>
>> The exhaust is on the starboard side of the engine, so there is a length
>> of lagged exhaust pipe as per this photo
>>
>> http://i59.tinypic.com/244tch3.jpg
>>
>> which then connects  to a section on the port side where the water is
>> injected. The entire assembly looks a bit ?home made?!
>>
>> If I have to replace the exhaust ?elbow? (in reality not an elbow at all)
>> where do I get this piece or is it custom made by a fabricator.
>>
>> If anyone else with a 3GM30F has a photo or diagram of the exhaust
>> arrangement I?d be most grateful
>>
>> Many thanks
>>
>> Graeme,
>> Britain

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:16:38 -0400
From: Martin Rosenberg <martinlrosenberg at gmail.com>
To: C320-List at catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail
Message-ID:
        <CAJ3O_A+TNHhRAMpB3Fn1QF7=dToM0qn-ueQwRSvFJG2PxWbWnA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Before the 2008 Service Advisory, I was always told, by Mack Boring (a
certified Yanmar facility) that the transmission would not get sufficient
lubrication when powered by the turning propeller rather than the engine
and that it should be in reverse when sailing without the engine running, I
have also found (please don't ask why) that a non-rotating propeller will
not be fouled by a spinnaker line or other stuff in the water. I have owned
2 Yanmar engines over the past 18 years and have never experienced or heard
of anyone having a problem from sailing with the transmission in reverse
gear. I have heard, however, that there is the possibility of damage if you
try to force the lever into neutral while the pressure of the water is
holding it in place. I have also heard that Yanmar is concerned because the
safest way to move the lever to neutral is after starting the engine and
they are afraid of being liable for physical damage if the engine is
started in reverse.
Martin Rosenberg
Avalon  #823

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Gene Helfman <genehelfman at gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Had enough wind today to hear the prop rotating while on a reach.  Ensuing
> discussion with two fellow sailors on the boat at the time.  One maintains
> that tranny should be in reverse when under sail because turning shaft
> insufficiently lubricated when engine is not on. I've always put it in
> neutral to reduce drag and figure since the cooling water is on the drip
> drip drip should prevent any real shaft friction.
>
> Opinions? (3GM30F, Satori, #398, 1997)
>
> --
> Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
> Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia
> PERMANENT address:
>     498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
>     (360) 468-2136
>     genehelfman at gmail.com
>
> "You noticed nobody gives a damn about beached minnows."
>

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:33:59 -0700
From: jim brown <jbrown5093 at yahoo.com>
To: "C320-List at Catalina320.com" <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail
Message-ID:
        <1413560039.6359.YahooMailNeo at web122606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I agree with Martin. When sailing in reverse the transmission will be very hard to shift into neutral and forcing it will do damage to the linkage and/or tranny. The engine can, and should, be started in reverse and then shifted into neutral. Apparently this will not harm the tranny. I also learned at the Yanmar engine course that the newer engines have a lock out feature as a safety feature and cannot be started when in gear. They were getting a lot of emergency calls from people who could not start the engine and could not get it out of gear after sailing in reverse so they were "stuck". So the advisory. They said never, never sail with the tranny in forward. At least that is what they told me.

Jim Brown

________________________________
 From: Martin Rosenberg <martinlrosenberg at gmail.com>
To: C320-List at catalina320.com
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail

Before the 2008 Service Advisory, I was always told, by Mack Boring (a
certified Yanmar facility) that the transmission would not get sufficient
lubrication when powered by the turning propeller rather than the engine
and that it should be in reverse when sailing without the engine running, I
have also found (please don't ask why) that a non-rotating propeller will
not be fouled by a spinnaker line or other stuff in the water. I have owned
2 Yanmar engines over the past 18 years and have never experienced or heard
of anyone having a problem from sailing with the transmission in reverse
gear. I have heard, however, that there is the possibility of damage if you
try to force the lever into neutral while the pressure of the water is
holding it in place. I have also heard that Yanmar is concerned because the
safest way to move the lever to neutral is after starting the engine and
they are afraid of being liable for physical damage if the engine is
started in reverse.
Martin Rosenberg
Avalon  #823

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Gene Helfman <genehelfman at gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Had enough wind today to hear the prop rotating while on a reach.  Ensuing
> discussion with two fellow sailors on the boat at the time.  One maintains
> that tranny should be in reverse when under sail because turning shaft
> insufficiently lubricated when engine is not on. I've always put it in
> neutral to reduce drag and figure since the cooling water is on the drip
> drip drip should prevent any real shaft friction.
>
> Opinions? (3GM30F, Satori, #398, 1997)
>
> --
> Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
> Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia
> PERMANENT address:
>     498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
>     (360) 468-2136
>    genehelfman at gmail.com
>
> "You noticed nobody gives a damn about beached minnows."
>

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:55:28 -0700
From: Danny Jensen <danny at jensenshouse.com>
To: "C320-List at Catalina320.com" <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Yanmar exhaust architecture
Message-ID: <EACA42C0-172E-4801-829F-3D1D3CC7E9F0 at jensenshouse.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8

New designs could be dangerous because you don't want back flow pressure from the muffler to the engine. Search on internet for bad stories of serious engine damage. Use a hump hose and consider mounting muffler on thin rubber matting. Replace the muffler every 8-10 years and you should be finished with your muffler woes.
Danny
#972

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2014, at 6:14 AM, "colloua5 at aol.com" <colloua5 at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> These part numbers are they from yamar direct ?
>
>
> Thanks for all the info
>
>
> on another note .....my muffler box failed, I am going to clean it, re-epoxy the joint where the two meet and then fiberglass mesh the two together on the outside  completing the sealed unit. From what I read the new units seem as poorly designed as the original.
>
>
> I am contemplating having one made of brass with  soldered joints over the winter, pressure test it and install, the cost should be equivalent to the fiberglass replacement unit
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tharrison <tharrison at innovations-plus.com>
> To: C320-List <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Sent: Thu, Oct 16, 2014 11:09 am
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Yanmar exhaust architecture
>
>
> One item to note is hose size. Mine was 1 5/8.
>
> There is a reverse direction joint between the elbow and mixing elbow. Play with
> this piece and the final orientation.
>
> 124070-13520 mixing elbow
> 128370-13610 elbow
> 104214-13580 joint
>
> Gasket, I do not have this part number.
>
> High temp gasket seal - red from NaPa
>
> Some anti seize compound for on the joint threads.
>
> That is all I can thing about.
>
> Others please verify the part numbers. I fairly sure.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 16, 2014, at 6:53 AM, Graeme Clark <cg at skyflyer.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Timothy
>>
>> Thats exactly why I wanted a photo or diagram (or even part numbers) , so I
> can get an idea of how the thing is put together following what would appear to
> be an early experiment on mine!
>>
>> For example at what point of the exhast doe sthe water injection take place?
> Itr seems to me that the cooling water exits on the port sode of the engine and
> the exhaust on the starboard side, so some form of connection needs to be made
> between the two. The ?standard? Yanmar exhast injection elbow has the water
> entering the exhaust just a few inches from the engine block, i.e., really
> early; mine has the water enetering about 18 inches downstream, hence,
> presumably the need to lag the prt beforehand which receives no cooling effect!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:27:53 -0400
>> From: Timothy Osburn <tosburn1958 at gmail.com>
>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Yanmar exhaust architecture
>> Message-ID:
>>   <CAJEc2k1MKDpjndsjfeZcPNCAAC3xWk0nXZoogQ=6dBmdvtE6ww at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> I just had mine replaced last month and the mechanic was able to use off
>> the shelf parts. I have the same engine.
>>> On Oct 14, 2014 5:37 PM, "Graeme Clark" <cg at skyflyer.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have just transitioned from one/third shared ownership of hull #303 with
>>> a Westerbeke to sole ownership of hull # 366 which (I have been told) is
>>> one of the very first to be fitted with a Yanmar 3GM30F engine.
>>>
>>> The exhaust arrangement/architecture is very different from the Westerbeke
>>> and I wondered if this was now ?standard? in all Yanmar engined 320s or has
>>> it been superseded with something else?
>>>
>>> The exhaust is on the starboard side of the engine, so there is a length
>>> of lagged exhaust pipe as per this photo
>>>
>>> http://i59.tinypic.com/244tch3.jpg
>>>
>>> which then connects  to a section on the port side where the water is
>>> injected. The entire assembly looks a bit ?home made?!
>>>
>>> If I have to replace the exhaust ?elbow? (in reality not an elbow at all)
>>> where do I get this piece or is it custom made by a fabricator.
>>>
>>> If anyone else with a 3GM30F has a photo or diagram of the exhaust
>>> arrangement I?d be most grateful
>>>
>>> Many thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme,
>>> Britain
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:43:14 -0400
From: Jon Vez <Jonvez at comcast.net>
To: "C320-List at Catalina320.com" <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] neutral or in gear while under sail
Message-ID: <EB6DED32-B6E9-4A2C-8E81-80880D784483 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii

The reason Yanmar recommends against sailing in gear is because the Kanzaki transmissions are cone clutch type transmissions and the cones can jam with the force of the prop not freewheeling. The Kanzaki tranny is also lubricated via oil bath, so whether the engine is running or not, does not affect lubrication. Bigger trannies often have a pump that requires an engine running for proper lubrication.
Many Universals are equipped with Hurth Transmissions, which are geared and I believe they do still recommend sailing in reverse. I think some of the confusion on this has been the fact that Hurth was by far the most common type of Trannies found on small auxiliaries and their recommendation bled over to all types of transmissions. Additionally Hurth tends to use transmission fluid whereas the Kanzaki's use motor oil.
One pro of freewheeling is less drag (google MITs tests), but a con is the cutless may wear a bit sooner.
As they say, your boat your choice....

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 17, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Martin Rosenberg <martinlrosenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Before the 2008 Service Advisory, I was always told, by Mack Boring (a
> certified Yanmar facility) that the transmission would not get sufficient
> lubrication when powered by the turning propeller rather than the engine
> and that it should be in reverse when sailing without the engine running, I
> have also found (please don't ask why) that a non-rotating propeller will
> not be fouled by a spinnaker line or other stuff in the water. I have owned
> 2 Yanmar engines over the past 18 years and have never experienced or heard
> of anyone having a problem from sailing with the transmission in reverse
> gear. I have heard, however, that there is the possibility of damage if you
> try to force the lever into neutral while the pressure of the water is
> holding it in place. I have also heard that Yanmar is concerned because the
> safest way to move the lever to neutral is after starting the engine and
> they are afraid of being liable for physical damage if the engine is
> started in reverse.
> Martin Rosenberg
> Avalon  #823
>
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Gene Helfman <genehelfman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Had enough wind today to hear the prop rotating while on a reach.  Ensuing
>> discussion with two fellow sailors on the boat at the time.  One maintains
>> that tranny should be in reverse when under sail because turning shaft
>> insufficiently lubricated when engine is not on. I've always put it in
>> neutral to reduce drag and figure since the cooling water is on the drip
>> drip drip should prevent any real shaft friction.
>>
>> Opinions? (3GM30F, Satori, #398, 1997)
>>
>> --
>> Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
>> Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia
>> PERMANENT address:
>>    498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
>>    (360) 468-2136
>>    genehelfman at gmail.com
>>
>> "You noticed nobody gives a damn about beached minnows."
>>

End of C320-list Digest, Vol 2175, Issue 1
******************************************