[C320-list] Architecture

[Larry Smith]

I wholeheartedly agree with Graeme & Bruce.
On Aug 1, 2015 2:01 PM, <c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Forum "architecture" (swampcreek42)
>    2. Re: Forum "architecture" (Jeff Hare)
>    3. Re: Forum "architecture" (Joseph R Aberdale)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 10:32:31 -0400
> From: swampcreek42 <swampcreek42 at yahoo.com>
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com, c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Forum "architecture"
> Message-ID: <n611v8lx1mrurr2pphpb7ohs.1438439551073 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> I agree with Graeme on this, a forum type media would better. I deeply
> appreciate the work and time that the people put into running this site and
> wouldn't want to offend but IMO the email list isn't what most people are
> used to in an interest group. It might even hold some back from
> contributing. I find it more problematic compared to other specific
> interest sites ?(forums) that I belong to. I made this suggestion when I
> first joined as well but the prevailing responses were to keep it as it is
> so I didn't discuss or bring it up anymore.
> Bruce Hunter?Nauti Time #719?
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Graeme Clark <cg at skyflyer.co.uk>
> Date: 07/31/2015  3:19 PM  (GMT-05:00)
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> Subject: [C320-list] Forum "architecture"
>
> An earlier post by me generated a question about responding to list
> messages without having to cut and paste.
>
> Until now - as a relative newcomer - (from foreign shores, too) - I have
> remained silent, but at the risk of incurring the wrath of the volunteers
> who look after this list I am now going to mention this ?elephant in the
> room?!
>
> Why on earth are we using this outdated, email-list type of forum
> architecture?
>
> It is clunky, and frequently, undisciplined use means that many responses
> are posted with the inclusion of the entire list message or the entire
> thread, making it difficult to follow. (Not least because responding is not
> a simple matter of just hitting ?reply' in your email program. You have to
> fiddle around and edit the subject title, remove messages from other
> threads and so on
>
> You cannot even post messages from the web interface in Google groups
> either, it?s ?read only?
>
> You cannot add rich text features like bold or italic, except like *this*!
>
> and its all so ancient an un-necessary!
>
> take a look here at the C34 owners site
>
> http://www.c34.org/bbs/index.php
>
> This is a standard message board format (available as freeware); you can
> subscribe to receive new emails, choose to follow certain threads or not,
> and so on.
>
> Guys and Girls - at the risk of upsetting someone,? this froum is the
> technical equivalent of hemp rope when everyone else has moved on to
> Dyneema, we are the typewriter to everyone else?s iPad, we are the sextant
> to everyone elses?s GPS!
>
> I am more than willing to help us move into the 21st Century if its help
> thats needed.
>
> Or am I missing a trick - is there some perceived benfit to the email list
> that I haven?t understood or some trick to using it that would make it less
> a labour of Hercules?
>
> (tin hat on, for incoming!)
>
> Graeme
> #366 Jaskar, England
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:11:28 -0400
> From: "Jeff Hare" <Catalina at thehares.com>
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Forum "architecture"
> Message-ID: <050b01d0cc74$b9900340$2cb009c0$@thehares.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear members.
>
> This is long but important as it marks a turning point.
>
> I'm really not trying to be a brick wall here, but since this is and has
> been essentially "my baby" whether I really wanted it or not for the past
> 12
> years, let's clear up a few things. I'm a professional software engineer by
> trade with a background in electrical engineering. I sit in front of a bank
> of monitors and write software for web startup companies 10 hours a day as
> I
> have for years. I completely understand this stuff inside and out at a
> level
> that makes most people run screaming from the room.  :)
>
> So, first I'll state the obvious so we're all on the same page.
>
> Today we have an email based discussion list, not a browser driven forum.
> We
> also set up a Google Discussion group that is Read-Only for searching (
> **for now** ). Google is the undeniable expert in search. The reason for an
> email discussion list is partly historical and partly because it is
> incredibly easy for members to participate, even when out on your boat in a
> harbor with very slow Wi-Fi or poor cell coverage. Try browsing or
> searching
> a web forum from your phone or tablet with only a single non-4G bar on your
> phone. Talk about frustrating!!! Text based email on the other hand will
> come through quickly and you're likely to get an answer to urgent questions
> just as quickly.
>
> If you want a place to carry on categorized social discussions, forums are
> great vehicle for that. This was really intended to be an owners technical
> support forum, not a social forum. So CLEARLY we disagree on the intended
> goal here.
>
> I will add that searching most BBS/web based discussion forums can be a
> frustrating experience because nearly all BBS systems rely on the database
> engine text matching for locating results. That totally stinks for finding
> quality results in context. Good contextual search is *very* hard. The
> C34's
> forum is no different there. Quality historical search is the reason for
> setting up an archive history using Google Groups.
>
> Our discussion list *CAN* allow pictures, attachments, rich text, all that
> and more.  That opens the door to viruses, inappropriate posts, etc.. (a
> tradeoff).  We (I) deliberately operate it in plain text mode because of
> the
> List's builtin archiving feature.  You can download all the discussion list
> history to your laptop or tablet and have it available off line.  These
> archives go back to October 2005 and cover everything that was ever
> discussed here. You can see this in action here:
> http://lists.catalina320.com/pipermail/c320-list-catalina320.com/
>
> The intent was that some volunteer or team of volunteers could use these
> text based archives to produce a solid knowledge base of information and
> best practices that has been captured in discussions over time. Because
> they
> are plain text and require no special software to read, that makes them a
> snap to copy/paste into any article or knowledge base.  So that's something
> anyway that isn't *useless* as I keep hearing.  I intended to write some
> software that would organize and keyword index these to use on our website.
> Best laid plans...
>
> Ok, Great, or Terrible depending on which of the many sides of this
> discussion you happen to fall on.
>
> The plan is (and has been for some time now) to enable social media Single
> Sign-On into our website so that if you're signed into Google, Facebook,
> Twitter or a myriad of other options, we'll be able to authenticate you as
> an association member and allow you to participate without having to sign
> in
> all over the place. Then we would make the switch over so that you can
> participate in the discussion list through the Google Group web interface,
> through email or both.  And it would be second nature and just work.
>
> Just "wanting it" isn't enough to make it happen. There are many safeguards
> that have to fall in place to keep things restricted to owners and those
> who
> have a genuine interest in the Catalina 320.  This means writing and
> testing
> more custom software. No out of the box system does this completely today.
> None. It has to be programmed into existence and maintained, or you have to
> decide which of the features you have now you're willing to give up in
> exchange.  There is nothing but a large set of trade-offs to make here.
>
> A new mobile device responsive version of our website was in development as
> I write this. Frankly, it'll still take months more of my time to complete,
> but it was coming together.  Our website is a unique among most of the
> other
> association websites out there because it was architected as a community
> site where individual members or groups of members can be granted rights to
> enhance the site, its content etc.. The new site work in development would
> be a major visual facelift and also add new set of community features where
> members can more easily add/remove content, articles, share documents,
> pictures, videos and other knowledge base information. Does it need a
> content reorg, absolutely. Are all the right features set up so that
> they're
> easy to use? Not yet. Is the site searching up to google standards? No, but
> leveraging google site search instead of database search is a feature I was
> researching.
>
> It comes down to Time, Skilled Resources and Motivation to make this
> happen,
> or paying a third party to do it.
>
> Time: I have huge demands on my time these days. As of last week, we
> haven't
> sailed our boat *anywhere at all* in 2 full years now.  Literally, floated
> it off the trailer in the spring, to the dock, and back to the trailer in
> the fall. 1 hr on the engine in 2 years. Awesome...  What exactly should I
> trade off so that I can devote get several hundred hours of my spare time
> to
> make all these changes people think are so easy to make?
>
> Skilled resources: So far, it's just me even though every year I plead with
> the association members to volunteer. (Thank you SO MUCH David Prudden,
> Karl, Sean, Warren who all stepped up to help with website content and
> membership details!!!!) Those with the skill know it's really hard and
> could
> easily consume every available bit of their free time. It's far easier to
> hide in the wings (which had I to do over again in retrospect...). Those
> without the skills simply ask "what's the holdup?", or hey, XYZ is doing it
> so it must be easy and we're all just bozos stuck in the stone age. Thanks
> for that.
>
> Motivation: I have to say, repeating this discussion every year doesn't
> help
> much either.
>
> Money:  I'm a volunteer. Not just in time, but also money as I hosted these
> services for the association for several years out of pocket on my own
> servers when this wasn't as cheap or easy as it is now.  A decent low end
> community portal can easily cost 20-75K to develop.  Or you can have a
> pretty WordPress or Drupal blog for free but give up most forms of member
> managed content we can support today.
>
> Sorry to say, that to that end, I'll be porting everything we have over to
> the new free hosting account for non-profits I set up for this association
> and stepping aside from the C320 board when my term is up this fall.  I
> stayed on an extra 2 years already, now it's really time to move on.
>
> Maybe I'll get my boat finished in time to sail it over to the haulout
> trailer for winter.  I'll try to make the transition process as painless as
> possible.  The membership will be free to establish whatever online
> resources the association chooses to afford, but be clear that someone will
> be required to make a commitment as I have done to keep things running,
> manage the security, membership, whatever is next. I've paid my dues, and
> now it's time for the critics among us to step up to the plate.  It can be
> made a lot better, I just don't have time to do it and by staying on, I'm
> an
> impediment to forward progress.  I guess I'll keep my stone tools however.
>
> I've found the discussion list to be immensely helpful over the years in
> its
> various forms, and I'm sure it'll do just fine in whatever format the group
> ends up adopting.
>
> Cheers!
> -Jeff Hare
> #809 Woodbine II
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:31:39 -0400
> From: Joseph R Aberdale <summerwind3 at comcast.net>
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Forum "architecture"
> Message-ID: <AAFCCEF7-0405-4ECD-A2F0-8B90F8B57AAE at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Jeff,
>
> I don?t have your skills but do have an appreciation of the time and work
> involved. I knew very little about my C320 when I purchased it 6 years ago
> but was determined to do all of my own work. This site has provided me with
> virtually all of the knowledge I have acquired to work on my boat and to
> solve problems that have arisen. I cannot imagine arriving at the point I?m
> at now without having this site to rely on. There was never a need for it
> to be perfect. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR ALL THAT YOU HAVE DONE AND
> CONTINUE TO DO. IT IS TRULY APPRECIATED AND IS INVALUABLE!
>
> Joe Aberdale
> Morning Star
> #908
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear members.
> >
> > This is long but important as it marks a turning point.
> >
> > I'm really not trying to be a brick wall here, but since this is and has
> > been essentially "my baby" whether I really wanted it or not for the
> past 12
> > years, let's clear up a few things. I'm a professional software engineer
> by
> > trade with a background in electrical engineering. I sit in front of a
> bank
> > of monitors and write software for web startup companies 10 hours a day
> as I
> > have for years. I completely understand this stuff inside and out at a
> level
> > that makes most people run screaming from the room.  :)
> >
> > So, first I'll state the obvious so we're all on the same page.
> >
> > Today we have an email based discussion list, not a browser driven
> forum. We
> > also set up a Google Discussion group that is Read-Only for searching (
> > **for now** ). Google is the undeniable expert in search. The reason for
> an
> > email discussion list is partly historical and partly because it is
> > incredibly easy for members to participate, even when out on your boat
> in a
> > harbor with very slow Wi-Fi or poor cell coverage. Try browsing or
> searching
> > a web forum from your phone or tablet with only a single non-4G bar on
> your
> > phone. Talk about frustrating!!! Text based email on the other hand will
> > come through quickly and you're likely to get an answer to urgent
> questions
> > just as quickly.
> >
> > If you want a place to carry on categorized social discussions, forums
> are
> > great vehicle for that. This was really intended to be an owners
> technical
> > support forum, not a social forum. So CLEARLY we disagree on the intended
> > goal here.
> >
> > I will add that searching most BBS/web based discussion forums can be a
> > frustrating experience because nearly all BBS systems rely on the
> database
> > engine text matching for locating results. That totally stinks for
> finding
> > quality results in context. Good contextual search is *very* hard. The
> C34's
> > forum is no different there. Quality historical search is the reason for
> > setting up an archive history using Google Groups.
> >
> > Our discussion list *CAN* allow pictures, attachments, rich text, all
> that
> > and more.  That opens the door to viruses, inappropriate posts, etc.. (a
> > tradeoff).  We (I) deliberately operate it in plain text mode because of
> the
> > List's builtin archiving feature.  You can download all the discussion
> list
> > history to your laptop or tablet and have it available off line.  These
> > archives go back to October 2005 and cover everything that was ever
> > discussed here. You can see this in action here:
> > http://lists.catalina320.com/pipermail/c320-list-catalina320.com/
> >
> > The intent was that some volunteer or team of volunteers could use these
> > text based archives to produce a solid knowledge base of information and
> > best practices that has been captured in discussions over time. Because
> they
> > are plain text and require no special software to read, that makes them a
> > snap to copy/paste into any article or knowledge base.  So that's
> something
> > anyway that isn't *useless* as I keep hearing.  I intended to write some
> > software that would organize and keyword index these to use on our
> website.
> > Best laid plans...
> >
> > Ok, Great, or Terrible depending on which of the many sides of this
> > discussion you happen to fall on.
> >
> > The plan is (and has been for some time now) to enable social media
> Single
> > Sign-On into our website so that if you're signed into Google, Facebook,
> > Twitter or a myriad of other options, we'll be able to authenticate you
> as
> > an association member and allow you to participate without having to
> sign in
> > all over the place. Then we would make the switch over so that you can
> > participate in the discussion list through the Google Group web
> interface,
> > through email or both.  And it would be second nature and just work.
> >
> > Just "wanting it" isn't enough to make it happen. There are many
> safeguards
> > that have to fall in place to keep things restricted to owners and those
> who
> > have a genuine interest in the Catalina 320.  This means writing and
> testing
> > more custom software. No out of the box system does this completely
> today.
> > None. It has to be programmed into existence and maintained, or you have
> to
> > decide which of the features you have now you're willing to give up in
> > exchange.  There is nothing but a large set of trade-offs to make here.
> >
> > A new mobile device responsive version of our website was in development
> as
> > I write this. Frankly, it'll still take months more of my time to
> complete,
> > but it was coming together.  Our website is a unique among most of the
> other
> > association websites out there because it was architected as a community
> > site where individual members or groups of members can be granted rights
> to
> > enhance the site, its content etc.. The new site work in development
> would
> > be a major visual facelift and also add new set of community features
> where
> > members can more easily add/remove content, articles, share documents,
> > pictures, videos and other knowledge base information. Does it need a
> > content reorg, absolutely. Are all the right features set up so that
> they're
> > easy to use? Not yet. Is the site searching up to google standards? No,
> but
> > leveraging google site search instead of database search is a feature I
> was
> > researching.
> >
> > It comes down to Time, Skilled Resources and Motivation to make this
> happen,
> > or paying a third party to do it.
> >
> > Time: I have huge demands on my time these days. As of last week, we
> haven't
> > sailed our boat *anywhere at all* in 2 full years now.  Literally,
> floated
> > it off the trailer in the spring, to the dock, and back to the trailer in
> > the fall. 1 hr on the engine in 2 years. Awesome...  What exactly should
> I
> > trade off so that I can devote get several hundred hours of my spare
> time to
> > make all these changes people think are so easy to make?
> >
> > Skilled resources: So far, it's just me even though every year I plead
> with
> > the association members to volunteer. (Thank you SO MUCH David Prudden,
> > Karl, Sean, Warren who all stepped up to help with website content and
> > membership details!!!!) Those with the skill know it's really hard and
> could
> > easily consume every available bit of their free time. It's far easier to
> > hide in the wings (which had I to do over again in retrospect...). Those
> > without the skills simply ask "what's the holdup?", or hey, XYZ is doing
> it
> > so it must be easy and we're all just bozos stuck in the stone age.
> Thanks
> > for that.
> >
> > Motivation: I have to say, repeating this discussion every year doesn't
> help
> > much either.
> >
> > Money:  I'm a volunteer. Not just in time, but also money as I hosted
> these
> > services for the association for several years out of pocket on my own
> > servers when this wasn't as cheap or easy as it is now.  A decent low end
> > community portal can easily cost 20-75K to develop.  Or you can have a
> > pretty WordPress or Drupal blog for free but give up most forms of member
> > managed content we can support today.
> >
> > Sorry to say, that to that end, I'll be porting everything we have over
> to
> > the new free hosting account for non-profits I set up for this
> association
> > and stepping aside from the C320 board when my term is up this fall.  I
> > stayed on an extra 2 years already, now it's really time to move on.
> >
> > Maybe I'll get my boat finished in time to sail it over to the haulout
> > trailer for winter.  I'll try to make the transition process as painless
> as
> > possible.  The membership will be free to establish whatever online
> > resources the association chooses to afford, but be clear that someone
> will
> > be required to make a commitment as I have done to keep things running,
> > manage the security, membership, whatever is next. I've paid my dues, and
> > now it's time for the critics among us to step up to the plate.  It can
> be
> > made a lot better, I just don't have time to do it and by staying on,
> I'm an
> > impediment to forward progress.  I guess I'll keep my stone tools
> however.
> >
> > I've found the discussion list to be immensely helpful over the years in
> its
> > various forms, and I'm sure it'll do just fine in whatever format the
> group
> > ends up adopting.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > -Jeff Hare
> > #809 Woodbine II
> >
> >
>
>
>
> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 2400, Issue 2
> ******************************************
>