[C320-list] Forum "architecture"

[Warren Updike]

Graeme is right about one thing: technology is in constant change, so is my
boat. I think it is good to bring up such issues. I think it is helpful that
Jeff has given fair warning that he can no longer continue the commitment he
has made for the past 12 years. When the question has come up in the past,
Jeff has always responded with clear, concise explanations of why decisions
were made as they were. No one else was in a position to take on the load
either for lack of time or knowledge or both. So, I applaud Graeme for
asking the question. It needs to be considered from time to time.

So, Graeme, please don't take offense to any of the responses. Each of us is
entitled to our opinion. If it weren't for honest inquiry very little might
get done in life. While I see how Ted's post could be taken as a rebuke, I
didn't consider yours to be a complaint, and as he did qualify it with "if,"
I don't see it applies to you. 

Bear with us,

Warren and Pattie Updike
1994 C320 "Warr de Mar" #62

-----Original Message-----
From: Graeme Clark [mailto:cg at skyflyer.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 4:48 PM
To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Forum "architecture"

Ted

I'm going to respond to your post directly because I feel it is
(essentially) directed at me and it is both unfair and inaccurate.

If you care to look again carefully at what I wrote you will see that right
from the very start I was at pains to acknowledge:

1) that i might be in the minority
2) that i might have missed the point or benefit of the current system
3) that i was grateful to those currently volunteering to run it as it is
4) that I was prepared to put in some effort to find and help set up an
alternative.

I went on to make the analogy that if nobody in the room ever says "it is
only me that finds this room really hot?", we can all sit sweating.  That
clearly implies an acceptance of the alternative  option that it IS only me
that finds the room hot.

To summarise, I postulated that a forum might be a better option. OK I did
more than postulate, I stated that in my opinion it WOULD be a better option
but it was a question not a DEMAND!

Jeff (Hare) says this comes up every year or so - well the last reference I
can find is in January 2014 and I certainly missed that at the time or I
would have commented . But hey - you know what? Things change, people
change, technology changes and perhaps most importantly the membership of
the Association changes, so its no bad thing to ask the question again from
time to time.

If nobody had ever asked - "do you think we could build a hull from this new
fangled glass fibre stuff" we'd be sailing wooden hulled 320s

The very fact that the topic DOES come up regularly, and is raised by a
different member every time, means that it IS, and remains an issue for some
people.

So Ted, - straight up - my opinion is as valid as anyone's else's. I'm more
than happy to go with a majority view and some of the discussion on this
subject has done a lot to convince me because if I had never raised this
issue I (and thus anyone else reading this thread who was in the same
position) would not have learned that:-

1) If you choose to have individual emails sent rather than a daily digest
it is way way easier to reply to them, -  in fact is a totally different
ballgame.

2) the 'rationale' for the email list is to enable quick responses to
technical questions  possibly from areas where bandwidth or technology is an
issue - blindingly obvious to you maybe, but I never saw it as that, I saw
it (and the Association website in general) as somewhere that i would visit
when NOT sailing to ask questions or even to answer them if I could. 

I have been at pains throughout this discussion to be open minded.
Unfortunately it seems my post has been seen as an all out assault on the
Association and the people that run it and the responses have sometimes been
- how can I put it  -  less than proportionate? It feels like i'm proposing
to abolish the First amendment -  not just to change the style of
communication used in an association of people who share a common interest.


Hope that puts it in perspective.

Best wishes

Graeme










On 1 Aug 2015, at 20:57, tharrison at innovations-plus.com wrote:

> I agree and DOUBLE the THANKS.
> 
> My dream (Magic Moment) would not be where she is today without this site.
It is simple to use. I have gotten replies in such an unbelievable quick
fashion, truly amazing. 
> 
> The site has inspired me to document what I learned from this group and
share the information back. Even though I am a newbie. It is one way I can
contribute back. 
> 
> So if you are a complainer, step up with your time and money. If your not
willing to take it on, sit back enjoy the benefits in this forum. In other
words put up or shut up. 
> 
> Bold statement yes, and straight up, 
> 
> Ted Harrison
> Hull 424
> Whitby Ontario 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:31 PM, Joseph R Aberdale <summerwind3 at comcast.net>
wrote:
>> 
>> Jeff,
>> 
>> I don't have your skills but do have an appreciation of the time and work
involved. I knew very little about my C320 when I purchased it 6 years ago
but was determined to do all of my own work. This site has provided me with
virtually all of the knowledge I have acquired to work on my boat and to
solve problems that have arisen. I cannot imagine arriving at the point I'm
at now without having this site to rely on. There was never a need for it to
be perfect. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR ALL THAT YOU HAVE DONE AND CONTINUE
TO DO. IT IS TRULY APPRECIATED AND IS INVALUABLE!
>> 
>> Joe Aberdale
>> Morning Star
>> #908
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear members.
>>> 
>>> This is long but important as it marks a turning point.
>>> 
>>> I'm really not trying to be a brick wall here, but since this is and has
>>> been essentially "my baby" whether I really wanted it or not for the
past 12
>>> years, let's clear up a few things. I'm a professional software engineer
by
>>> trade with a background in electrical engineering. I sit in front of a
bank
>>> of monitors and write software for web startup companies 10 hours a day
as I
>>> have for years. I completely understand this stuff inside and out at a
level
>>> that makes most people run screaming from the room.  :)
>>> 
>>> So, first I'll state the obvious so we're all on the same page.
>>> 
>>> Today we have an email based discussion list, not a browser driven
forum. We
>>> also set up a Google Discussion group that is Read-Only for searching (
>>> **for now** ). Google is the undeniable expert in search. The reason for
an
>>> email discussion list is partly historical and partly because it is
>>> incredibly easy for members to participate, even when out on your boat
in a
>>> harbor with very slow Wi-Fi or poor cell coverage. Try browsing or
searching
>>> a web forum from your phone or tablet with only a single non-4G bar on
your
>>> phone. Talk about frustrating!!! Text based email on the other hand will
>>> come through quickly and you're likely to get an answer to urgent
questions
>>> just as quickly.
>>> 
>>> If you want a place to carry on categorized social discussions, forums
are
>>> great vehicle for that. This was really intended to be an owners
technical
>>> support forum, not a social forum. So CLEARLY we disagree on the
intended
>>> goal here.
>>> 
>>> I will add that searching most BBS/web based discussion forums can be a
>>> frustrating experience because nearly all BBS systems rely on the
database
>>> engine text matching for locating results. That totally stinks for
finding
>>> quality results in context. Good contextual search is *very* hard. The
C34's
>>> forum is no different there. Quality historical search is the reason for
>>> setting up an archive history using Google Groups.
>>> 
>>> Our discussion list *CAN* allow pictures, attachments, rich text, all
that
>>> and more.  That opens the door to viruses, inappropriate posts, etc.. (a
>>> tradeoff).  We (I) deliberately operate it in plain text mode because of
the
>>> List's builtin archiving feature.  You can download all the discussion
list
>>> history to your laptop or tablet and have it available off line.  These
>>> archives go back to October 2005 and cover everything that was ever
>>> discussed here. You can see this in action here:  
>>> http://lists.catalina320.com/pipermail/c320-list-catalina320.com/
>>> 
>>> The intent was that some volunteer or team of volunteers could use these
>>> text based archives to produce a solid knowledge base of information and
>>> best practices that has been captured in discussions over time. Because
they
>>> are plain text and require no special software to read, that makes them
a
>>> snap to copy/paste into any article or knowledge base.  So that's
something
>>> anyway that isn't *useless* as I keep hearing.  I intended to write some
>>> software that would organize and keyword index these to use on our
website.
>>> Best laid plans...
>>> 
>>> Ok, Great, or Terrible depending on which of the many sides of this
>>> discussion you happen to fall on.
>>> 
>>> The plan is (and has been for some time now) to enable social media
Single
>>> Sign-On into our website so that if you're signed into Google, Facebook,
>>> Twitter or a myriad of other options, we'll be able to authenticate you
as
>>> an association member and allow you to participate without having to
sign in
>>> all over the place. Then we would make the switch over so that you can
>>> participate in the discussion list through the Google Group web
interface,
>>> through email or both.  And it would be second nature and just work.
>>> 
>>> Just "wanting it" isn't enough to make it happen. There are many
safeguards
>>> that have to fall in place to keep things restricted to owners and those
who
>>> have a genuine interest in the Catalina 320.  This means writing and
testing
>>> more custom software. No out of the box system does this completely
today.
>>> None. It has to be programmed into existence and maintained, or you have
to
>>> decide which of the features you have now you're willing to give up in
>>> exchange.  There is nothing but a large set of trade-offs to make here.
>>> 
>>> A new mobile device responsive version of our website was in development
as
>>> I write this. Frankly, it'll still take months more of my time to
complete,
>>> but it was coming together.  Our website is a unique among most of the
other
>>> association websites out there because it was architected as a community
>>> site where individual members or groups of members can be granted rights
to
>>> enhance the site, its content etc.. The new site work in development
would
>>> be a major visual facelift and also add new set of community features
where
>>> members can more easily add/remove content, articles, share documents,
>>> pictures, videos and other knowledge base information. Does it need a
>>> content reorg, absolutely. Are all the right features set up so that
they're
>>> easy to use? Not yet. Is the site searching up to google standards? No,
but
>>> leveraging google site search instead of database search is a feature I
was
>>> researching.
>>> 
>>> It comes down to Time, Skilled Resources and Motivation to make this
happen,
>>> or paying a third party to do it.
>>> 
>>> Time: I have huge demands on my time these days. As of last week, we
haven't
>>> sailed our boat *anywhere at all* in 2 full years now.  Literally,
floated
>>> it off the trailer in the spring, to the dock, and back to the trailer
in
>>> the fall. 1 hr on the engine in 2 years. Awesome...  What exactly should
I
>>> trade off so that I can devote get several hundred hours of my spare
time to
>>> make all these changes people think are so easy to make?
>>> 
>>> Skilled resources: So far, it's just me even though every year I plead
with
>>> the association members to volunteer. (Thank you SO MUCH David Prudden,
>>> Karl, Sean, Warren who all stepped up to help with website content and
>>> membership details!!!!) Those with the skill know it's really hard and
could
>>> easily consume every available bit of their free time. It's far easier
to
>>> hide in the wings (which had I to do over again in retrospect...). Those
>>> without the skills simply ask "what's the holdup?", or hey, XYZ is doing
it
>>> so it must be easy and we're all just bozos stuck in the stone age.
Thanks
>>> for that.
>>> 
>>> Motivation: I have to say, repeating this discussion every year doesn't
help
>>> much either.
>>> 
>>> Money:  I'm a volunteer. Not just in time, but also money as I hosted
these
>>> services for the association for several years out of pocket on my own
>>> servers when this wasn't as cheap or easy as it is now.  A decent low
end
>>> community portal can easily cost 20-75K to develop.  Or you can have a
>>> pretty WordPress or Drupal blog for free but give up most forms of
member
>>> managed content we can support today.
>>> 
>>> Sorry to say, that to that end, I'll be porting everything we have over
to
>>> the new free hosting account for non-profits I set up for this
association
>>> and stepping aside from the C320 board when my term is up this fall.  I
>>> stayed on an extra 2 years already, now it's really time to move on.
>>> 
>>> Maybe I'll get my boat finished in time to sail it over to the haulout
>>> trailer for winter.  I'll try to make the transition process as painless
as
>>> possible.  The membership will be free to establish whatever online
>>> resources the association chooses to afford, but be clear that someone
will
>>> be required to make a commitment as I have done to keep things running,
>>> manage the security, membership, whatever is next. I've paid my dues,
and
>>> now it's time for the critics among us to step up to the plate.  It can
be
>>> made a lot better, I just don't have time to do it and by staying on,
I'm an
>>> impediment to forward progress.  I guess I'll keep my stone tools
however.
>>> 
>>> I've found the discussion list to be immensely helpful over the years in
its
>>> various forms, and I'm sure it'll do just fine in whatever format the
group
>>> ends up adopting.
>>> 
>>> Cheers!
>>> -Jeff Hare
>>> #809 Woodbine II
>>