[C320-list] Voltage Regulators- New thread away from batteries

[Scott Westwood]

Wow.  You all are not making this easy.  Lots to consider.  Good stuff.
Before you read this I am sorry for the long post.  Head is swimming....
Here is where I am at (If I'm not lost...):
Concerns:1. SOC.  I currently have no accurate way to know the real SOC.  The Xantex charger (when connected to shore power) has some lamp indications but nothing specific.  The existing analog battery test rocker switch is fair but not very accurate.  I would like to know just how "filled" each battery is.  Nothing to the nano-amp/voltage level but reliable enough to sleep good at night.  Especially after hauling anchor and motoring for only a couple of hours.   Am I not refilling the batteries if I anchor 3-4 days in a row with only 3-4 hours motoring each day?  That kind of thing. NOTE: If/when I retire in another year we plan to take a portable generator to top things off etc...  Still need to know SOC though.

2. Current draw.  This is a personal thing but I like the idea of knowing the real time current draw.  Saw this on a friends boat.  You can shut off all but any single device and know its actual current draw and easily calculate the duration you can safely run that particular device.  (Example) Add devices together and you have a rough idea of what running anchor lights and the radio all night. etc... would be on the batteries.  Also if any device jumps in load then something could be going bad with that device or connections.  This is a very nice to have (to me).
I am "leaning" towards AGMs. Not completely sold yet but our current LAs always have some liquid on the tops of the batteries.  We don't sail level all the time.  We heel.  I like the no mess, no maint part.  I also think they may last longer but that appears to be related (like both types) to the care you give them.  I also hear that they can take discharges better?  Given the second battery is the same age as the one that just died... makes me think its life is short as well??  Now is the time.
Assuming our current Xantrex charger will support AGMs....Then my concern is 3 things: 
1. Alternator. Is the existing one enough but may just need to run longer to replenish?  I am assuming it will eventually recharge the AGMs but what is the run time needed?  I know there is a formula but not sure I have time to do the testing/math....What is cost of increasing the Alternator (Yanmar 3GM30F)? Can't be that much???  If cost is high enough I will do the math.
2. Regulator. Cost and what is impact to battery life?  Worth it?  So far it sounds like yes.  If so, then which one?  Depends on the Alternator?  We hope to add solar later.  Make a difference to the decision now or would adding  solar mean another regulator for that?  Have not done deep dive into solar yet.  Farther down the road.
3. Monitor. If I do all this or not... I want to know the condition of each  battery. Period. When I wake up in the morning (at anchor) how drained are the batteries?  If I motor for 5 hours, are they replenished?  Can I anchor for 3 days straight and not damage the batteries (with our usage)?  Right now I can't reliably/easily tell.   I want a monitor that tells me real time amp draw and SOC/Volts at a minimum.  I read enough to know SOC is a guess at best of times.  Voltage might be enough??  Ideally I want a single monitor "display" that will monitor all batteries.  Not having to install a gauge/hole per battery in the power panel. EmonII Ample Power is in the running, but might be overkill??  Victron BMV-712 Smart is also in the running but appears I will need one per battery so, 2 holes in panel?? I know there are other single displays for multiple Batteries out there.  Still digging.

I am willing/likely to replace both batteries with AGMs. Likely add a monitor. Maybe add a good regulator (if extends battery life or have good enough reason). Maybe replace the alternator to reduce engine run time to recharge (Less critical since we could just get generator sooner- cost will decide).  I don't "want to" have to replace the shore power charger.
Sorry for the long note.
I just need a list of monitors to read up on and list of regulators (if needed).  Then the price/size of an alternator.
For now....

Thanks,
Scott Westwood scottwestwood at bellsouth.net H (919)-362-8538    C (919)-618-7185

      From: Greg Flanagan <greg.flanagan at shaw.ca>
 To: C320-List at Catalina320.com 
 Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [C320-list] Voltage Regulators- New thread away from batteries
   
I have the Smartgauge. I Installed it a couple of years ago after t took a day seminar with Calder (I have all of his books of course). I had to redo my whole system after a cell died in one battery and the shore charger thought burning down the boat would better than shutting down.  I was not getting proper SOC from other sources. My redo included solar. The Smartgauge is excellent and easy to install. It also shows current house bank voltage and just the voltage of one other battery-in my case the starter battery. 

Cheers,

Greg Flanagan
Hoop Dancer #1076
Sidney, BC 


> On Jul 12, 2018, at 7:56 PM, Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jeff
> 
> Correct it doesn’t display amps, but...
> 
> I think that the advertised simplicity, ease of set up, and accuracy of
> this device potentially makes knowing those other things non issues.  In
> addition to voltage this device displays the true state of charge of the
> battery, and that’s the beauty of it.  If you know the real SOC....all that
> other stuff doesn’t really matter.  Amphour metering through a shunt is
> nice IF you know exactly how many amp hours of capacity you have in your
> battery and the starting state of charge...but....you don’t actually have a
> way of knowing these numbers accurately in that type of setup because
> capacity is always dropping and SOC is a function of a pretty complicated
> set of variables.  So....  Knowing current doesn’t actually tell the whole
> story either.  Admittedly prior to this device appearing on the market,
> amp metering was the best monitoring that could be bought.  This device
> might truly be a game changer. Do not be fooled...this is not a volt meter.
>  It is purported to be a highly sophisticated electronic device.
> 
> RC (aka Mainesail) has a really good write up on his web site.  Absolutely
> worth a read.  I'm pretty much sold...I’m hoping someone who has one
> chimes in before I  make the leap.
> 
> T
> 
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:22 PM Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Troy,
>> 
>> The only reason I didn't specifically recommend the smartguage was Simply
>> because I haven't looked up in the past few years to see what the state of
>> the art is!  Probably deserves a good look!  It doesn't appear to use a
>> Shunt, so it won't be capable of displaying real time current readings,
>> like charge current or what your loads are drawing.  Those are very useful
>> readings IMHO.  Voltage is nice for getting an idea of your state of charge
>> (if the display has enough decimal places), but doesn't tell the whole
>> story.
>> 
>> -Jeff
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
>> Troy Dunn
>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 9:30 PM
>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Voltage Regulators- New thread away from batteries
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> At the risk of hijacking Scott's thread.  First of all...serious
>> electrical system envy here...your setup is pretty darn close to perfect
>> IMHO.
>> 
>> Any reason you aren't reccomending the smartgauge?  It seems like this is
>> the one I will end up going with...curious your thoughts.
>> 
>> Scott-
>> 
>> Attempting to separate one part of your electrical system trade from
>> another is really difficult.  The interdependencies are pretty intricate,
>> and also...how you use the system is an extremely important part of that
>> equation as is...how deep is your wallet.  If cost is not a consideration,
>> what Jeff described is really close to what I’m planning to do,
>> unfortunately I’m a bit frugal and FLAs keep creeping into the picture
>> because they really are the better value from what I can tell.  How you
>> end up going battery wise will have a significant impact on these other
>> system trades.  Good luck and keep us all posted on your final decisions.
>> 
>> FWIW-
>> 
>> Troy Dunn
>> S/V Wonky Dog
>> Hull #514
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:42 PM Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Scott,
>>> 
>>> I used to have the Ample Power NextStep regulator in the past. (High
>>> End to the point of geek level).  Don't recommend them really unless
>>> you have the urge to diddle a lot of settings that make virtually no
>>> difference and like a ton of precision wiring.
>>> 
>>> Today I use the Balmar MaxCharge external regulator driving an AmpTech
>>> 125se (125Amp alternator) which is charging a pair of Lifeline 4D AGM
>>> batteries which are hardwired in parallel and indirectly charges an
>>> AGM Automotive starting battery through a Xantrex Echo Charge.
>>> 
>>> AmpTech (in Texas) makes a great alternator that's a less expensive
>>> than Balmar's alternators with (I think) higher output and better
>>> thermal performance.
>>> 
>>> For Shore power, I use a Charles 60a charger.
>>> 
>>> For linking all this together, I ditched the stock 1-2-both and house
>>> panel and installed a Blue Sea panel similar to the 8080 which has an
>>> Engine On/Off switch for the Starting battery, A House On/Off which
>>> powers the house from the 4D's and an emergency Parallel switch that
>>> switches all your batteries in parallels in case you need to also use
>>> your house batteries to help start the engine.
>>> 
>>> I still have my Ample Power E-Mon II (energy monitor/controller) that
>>> lets me see all the currents, voltages and discharge rates.  (There
>>> are better units out today from other sources like Victron that aren't
>>> such a pain in the butt to install).
>>> 
>>> -Jeff Hare
>>> 2001 #809 Woodbine II
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
>>> Scott Westwood
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 8:11 AM
>>> To: Catalina List <c320-list at catalina320.com>
>>> Subject: [C320-list] Voltage Regulators- New thread away from
>>> batteries
>>> 
>>> My search for battery replacement takes me to the next phase of my
>>> education: Regulators.
>>> What regulators have people used?  High end and mid range.  I try to
>>> NOT use low end anything unless.....
>>> Every answer breeds new questions.....  I thought I was too old for
>>> school..
>>> Never stop learning...I know.  Love it.  Just wish I was retired and
>>> could focus full time on this.  Coming soon.
>>> Where can I educate myself on regulators? Thanks, Scott Westwood
>>> scottwestwood at bellsouth.net H (919)-362-8538    C (919)-618-7185
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>