[C320-list] Fuel Injector or Injector Pump?

[Jeff Smith]

Scott,

Thanks. If you do not mind sending the illustration to  Jeffreyssmith at live.com I would greatly appreciate it. I have ordered the book (not sure when it will arrive though) and a remote starter switch to help me perform this test and to help diagnose the problem.

Jeff
’94, #121

> On May 10, 2020, at 11:17 PM, Scott Lagerquist <lgrqst at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> Jeff,
> I had a starting problem on a diesel from a prior boat and bought a book called “Troubleshooting Marine Diesels” written by Peter Compton.  The book has trouble shooting methods that have worked for me.  In particular, there is a process to check the operation of the injector pump without removing it.  Step 1, remove injector lines from the pump.  Step 2, turn engine over with starter while looking at injector-line connections.  You should see a droplet of fuel shoot upward (it’s minimal spillage and only shoots up about four inches) as each piston reaches its injection point.  Step 3, if you don’t see the splash of fuel, bleed the pump of air and try again.  If there is no fuel shooting upward your pump is malfunctioning.  
> 
> On my prior boat one injector-line connection point failed to produce the shot of fuel.  Turned out to be a broken spring in the injection pump.  This test will either eliminate the injector pump or show if it is inoperable.   
> 
> If you’d like, I can take a pic of the illustration of what you are looking at from the book and send it via text or email.  For all of our members who aren’t diesel mechanics, I highly recommend the book.  I’m in San Diego if any local members ever want to borrow it for trouble shooting a Diesel engine issue.  
> 
> Good luck.  There is a lot of great advice in the thread already and I thought I’d share as this test procedure can let you know if your injector pump is or is not working correctly. 
> 
> Scott Lagerquist
> 1994 C-320, #39
> Sea Esta
> Silver Gate Yacht Club
> San Diego CA
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On May 10, 2020, at 5:09 PM, Jeff Smith <jeffreyssmith at live.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Bob,
>> 
>> I am happy to try your procedure. Please send directly to me at: jeffreyssmith at live.com (yes there are two “s”).
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jeff
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On May 10, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Bob Borelli <cassattc22 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jeff,
>>> Perhaps that you only ran the M30 for only 5 to 10 minutes after bleeding the fuel system offers a clue.
>>> The diesel started & ran for up to 10 minutes back in December, no other work done.
>>> 
>>> My diesel mechanic told me to run the M30 for up to an hour after I changed the primary & secondary fuel filters and bled the system.
>>> Run the diesel before I left the slip.
>>> The length of time surprised me but he said this is to ensure the air has been throughly bled out.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps it is this simple, maybe consider bleeding the fuel supply again.
>>> I have attached the proceedure I went over with the mechanic & I followed this past March after changing the filters.
>>> He made a point that I get the gaskets inserted correctly.
>>> 
>>> I hand pumped the lift lever over 500 times until finally, finally no air bubbles ( a normal person would have given up long ago).
>>> I tried a remote starter connected to the M30 starter motor solenoid in a effort to turn over the engine & bleed the injectors by myself.
>>> A very good remote starter would not turn the starter motor over, very disappointed.
>>> I tried a socket on the crankshaft to bleed the injectors.  I learned I need someone to turn the ignition key in the control panel.
>>> Anyway I got lucky and the diesel runs.
>>> 
>>> The rattle was reduced by the mechanic adjusting the valve clearance to the specification 0.004" as stated in the M30 manual for every 400 hours operating time.  These adjustments reduced the low idle speed, 1000 rpm, rattle noise.
>>> 
>>> Hope this problem gets solved simply.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob Borelli   'Elusive'
>>> 1995 C320 no. 209 with a Perkins Perama M30  3 cylinder diesel.
>>> Sailing Associates Inc., Georgetown Maryland
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> on behalf of Chris Burti <clburti at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:20 AM
>>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Fuel Injector or Injector Pump?
>>> 
>>> I have a somewhat similar issue with our 2001 Yanmar (for a period of time this was a common problem for our era D-320’s)… there are two reasonably common issues for these models that have the same symptom, but different cause. If the engine has not run in a couple of weeks, air gets in the system and if it starts it will cut off when you apply throttle.
>>> 
>>> 1. Catalina installed a check valve in the diesel fuel return line for a period of time and after a while the valve would slowly allow air into the fuel system, only a problem if the engine is run infrequently. Proper repair is to remove the check valve per Yanmar,
>>> 2. Second issue is that there is a nickel metal crush washer at the bleed screw just before the injectors. If this gets tightened too much it will allow air into the fuel system, only a problem if the engine is run infrequently. Proper repair is to replace the washer.
>>> 
>>> I don’t know which of these is the source of my problem, because a few strokes on the Racor pump solves the problem as long as I run the engine frequently.
>>> 
>>> I don’t have a clue if your problem has a similar cause, but try stroking the Racor pump a half a dozen times and see if your Perkins starts… if so you probably have an air leak somewhere.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Chris Burti
>>> Commitment, #867
>>> Farmville, NC
>>> 
>>> From: Jeff Smith
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 9:33 AM
>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Fuel Injector or Injector Pump?
>>> 
>>> Troy/Graeme/Bob,
>>> 
>>> I should say that every once in awhile, it acts like it will fire. But generally, I can grind the starter for 10 or 15 seconds (thru-hull closed) and it just turns over. I had this problem starting in the summer of last year. I eventually paid a mechanic to come help me bleed the system so I could winterize it in December. We got it bled and it started and ran then. I ran it for 5 or 10 minutes and it had that familiar Perkins 3-cylinder rattle (at idle) that always feels like it is going to come through the floorboard. It sat until this week (I was waiting on exhaust hoses before I could de-winterize) and the same symptoms reoccurred. It had not been touched since it ran in December, and the fuel was fresh as of November with an the proper additives. It did not make sense to me that it could be air in the fuel, because I did not mess with a fitting after it ran in December. I am not inclined to think compression or timing, because there was no symptoms prior to the issue.
>>> 
>>> I thought about putting an electric lift pump on to aid with bleeding. I could do that now and then run the electric lift pump to see if that is the issue. I am not sure how to test the lift pump. Maybe open the bleed screw on the injector pump and operate the lift pump handle. If I am getting insufficient flow from the lift pump, but good flow with the Racor pump, that could be a sign the diaphragm is bad? Although, my buddy helping me said he did see fuel at the “leak by” caps on the injectors when I turned the engine over. That could be residual fuel from when I actuated the Racor pump handle, though.
>>> 
>>> Perplexing for sure.
>>> 
>>> Thanks to all for suggestions. I will close the loop when I get it solved.
>>> 
>>> Jeff
>>> 
>>>>> On May 10, 2020, at 9:21 AM, Bob Borelli <cassattc22 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The Perkins M30 manual don't mention decompression levers.
>>>> I do not believe they are on the M30.
>>>> 
>>>> 1.  Operating Instructions
>>>> 2.  Operation & Maintenance Manual
>>>> 3.  100 Series Work Shop Manual
>>>> 4.  Parts Manual
>>>> 
>>>> Now when you say 'high speed pump' do you mean the fuel injection pump?
>>>> 
>>>> You have tested the lift pump because there is fuel at the injectors when you bleed air from the system.
>>>> 
>>>> Now I know this sounds dopey but if the diesel needs speed to start, and the control throttle is forward, has the throttle lever on the engine moved forward?
>>>> If the cable does not advance the lever to governor & injection pump, not turning off fast enough.
>>>> Quick visual check & the stop lever also.
>>>> 
>>>> Thinking aloud:  If no work was done to effect timing, why would it be timing?  How to test?
>>>> Could it be lift pump diaphragm not pumping sufficient fuel to injection pump?  How to test?
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> on behalf of Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 7:55 AM
>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com <C320-List at catalina320.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Fuel Injector or Injector Pump?
>>>> 
>>>> Graeme-
>>>> 
>>>> That's exactly what I’ve been scratching my head about.   Not firing at all
>>>> is an air, fuel, or ignition problem upstream of the injectors is my guess
>>>> too.    I don't know if the fuel cut out affects the high speed pump, i
>>>> would have said no.  The only downstream problem I can think of is either
>>>> insufficient compression to get to ignition and/or something seriously
>>>> wrong with the cylinder head.
>>>> 
>>>> Is it possible the decompression levers could be thrown but not far enough
>>>> to have the engine making that obvious sewing machine sound?   Does the M30
>>>> have decompression levers?  Dunno.
>>>> 
>>>> It's going to be very interesting to hear what this turns out to be....
>>>> 
>>>> Troy
>>> 
>>> 
>