[C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
RONALD HODEL
ronandgail2 at me.com
Fri Sep 4 15:30:22 PDT 2020
It might also be interesting to search ABYC standards or European CE standards which might have something to say about check valves in bilge pump hoses.
Ron,
Lokomaikai 1070
Dana Point, CA
Sent from my iPad
> On Sep 4, 2020, at 2:48 PM, Tony Belton <Tony.Belton at 1rail.com.au> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> With regards to bilge pumps and check valves, I'm concerned that some are getting enough water in the bilge to trigger the pump in the first place. Where is all the water coming from? In 3 1/2 years and 3,400 miles I have never had this happen, I had a leaking raw water pump for a while which only put a sponge or 2 of water in the bilge each trip.
> Sort out your water ingress guys and girls and you won't need to think about this stuff.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony,
> Shilo, Hull251,
> Adelaide, South Australia
>
>
> Tony Belton
> Transport Controller
>
> 8 8343 7606
> Tony.Belton at 1rail.com.au | 1rail.com.au
>
> 1 Kidman Road, Dry Creek SA 5094
>
> [cid:1r_2b70fde0-bdcc-4915-b9a2-c6206b6a8c30.png]
>
> ONE Team - We work as one to get the best outcomes for our customers.
>
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> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com
> Sent: Thursday, 3 September 2020 10:21 AM
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> Subject: C320-list Digest, Vol 3820, Issue 3
>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of C320-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Check valve (Fishbust)
> 2. Re: Bilge Pumps and Check Valves (Warren Updike)
> 3. Re: Bilge Pumps and Check Valves (John Frost)
> 4. Re: Bilge Pumps and Check Valves (John Frost)
> 5. Re: Check valve (Jack Brennan)
> 6. Re: How far offshore? (Troy Dunn)
> 7. Re: Check valve (Charles Martin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:18:33 -0400
> From: Fishbust <fishbuster62 at att.net<mailto:fishbuster62 at att.net>>
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Check valve
> Message-ID: <DEBE6116-969B-40FE-A9DE-DC689F51A54E at att.net<mailto:DEBE6116-969B-40FE-A9DE-DC689F51A54E at att.net>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Chip, check valve would be a no-no for a bilge pump. If it sticks closed, no water can move. If it sticks or obstruction keeps it open, your cycle continues until your battery is dead and then you could wind up with an even bigger problem.
>
> Just raise the float switch.
>
>> On Sep 2, 2020, at 4:01 PM, c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com> wrote:
>>
>> Send C320-list mailing list submissions to
>> c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web browser, visit
>> http://lists.catalina320.com/listinfo.cgi/c320-list-catalina320.com<http://lists.catalina320.com/listinfo.cgi/c320-list-catalina320.com>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com>
>>
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of C320-list digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine (Doug Treff)
>> 2. Re: Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine (Dave Hupe)
>> 3. Bilge Pumps and Check Valves (Charles Martin)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 11:17:01 -0400
>> From: "Doug Treff" <doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>>
>> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold
>> Machine
>> Message-ID: <08ef507e-77a4-4db3-90f7-462576a3937b at www.fastmail.com<mailto:08ef507e-77a4-4db3-90f7-462576a3937b at www.fastmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I've been eyeing the Nova Kool units too. The LT201-RT4 seems to have the same freezer box we currently have. Interested to hear if the RT6 will fit in a C320 fridge box.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Treff
>> doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>
>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Dave Hupe wrote:
>>> In answer to the appreciated feedback so far, my fan was working fine,
>>> the thermostat was only set to 4, and the compressor body itself was
>>> not hot (I think it normally is very hot to the touch).?
>>> The cold plate was completely covered with ice and in fact several
>>> items in the freezer bin were completely frozen solid.??
>>> I definitely don't plan to throw money at it considering the old age.?
>>> I have taken note of a complete Nova Kool unit recommended by John
>>> Morrison (LT201-RT6) that is selling for $920 now at
>>> www.suremarineservice.com<http://www.suremarineservice.com>. A new complete Adler Barbour Cool Machine
>>> seems to be about $1500 now.
>>> Dave Hupe
>>> 1994 C320 #32
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM, Graeme Clark<cg at skyflyer.co.uk<mailto:cg at skyflyer.co.uk>>
>>> wrote: I?m no refrigeration expert but recently did a bit of reading
>>> prior to replacing my 1996 unit!
>>>
>>> My I de standing is:-
>>>
>>> If the system is set up correctly the entire evaporator cold plate in
>>> the cooler box should be cool/frosted but the return pipe to the
>>> compressor should not. If it is then that?s a sign that the system is
>>> overcharged with refrigerant
>>>
>>> Conversely an undercharged system will show up because only a portion
>>> of the evaporator plate gets cold
>>>
>>> The cooling effect is when the liquid refrigerant expands through a
>>> small orifice to become a gas
>>>
>>> The compressor then compressed the gas which makes it very hot and the
>>> condenser cools the hot gas (with the aid of a fan) to return the
>>> refrigerant to a liquid and the cycle repeats
>>>
>>> I struggle to see how lack of fan or other overheating would cause
>>> frosting on the compressor or condenser?
>>>
>>> I would suspect a partial blockage of the circuit near the compressor
>>> and condenser creating a restriction and allowing the refrigerant to
>>> expand into a gas downstream of that restriction
>>>
>>> I?m not sure how else you end up with frosting at the compressor end,?
>>> which creates considerable heat!
>>>
>>> But I?m no expert so happy to be schooled!
>>>
>>> However I replaced my system (including evaporator) at a cost of under
>>> $1000. It?s an easy, although fiddly, job
>>>
>>> The new unit draws 3amps max (variable speed so sometimes only 2.5) vs
>>> 6 amps on the old one
>>>
>>> In my humble opinion I wouldn?t spend a cent on fixing your 1994 system
>>> as I suspect it will be the start of continual maintenance costs given
>>> its age. Bite the bullet and replace it if you can afford to do so!
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>> #366
>>> 1996
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone. Excuse typos!
>>>
>>>> On 2 Sep 2020, at 13:04, islgirl3 at aol.com<mailto:islgirl3 at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Dave,Also make sure the fan is working properly.
>>>> RichBarbara Rita 897
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com<mailto:troutwarrior at gmail.com>>
>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com> <C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>>
>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2020 8:49 pm
>>>> Subject: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> Your question doesn?t show up in my email feed just on the site so I had to
>>>> try to redo the subject line.
>>>>
>>>> We have had this problem with a dehumidifier we use in the basement.? We
>>>> have found that turning the dehumidifier down a little seems to help a lot
>>>> to extend the useful life of the unit.
>>>>
>>>> The typical cause of this problem is that your compressor is working harder
>>>> than it was designed to do originally.? This can be because you have the
>>>> fridge turned way up on a not so hot day so there is not enough? hot air
>>>> blowing across the compressor , or because your compressor fan isn't
>>>> blowing quite as? well as it used to, or you are starting to run low on
>>>> refrigerant.
>>>>
>>>> If this is your original unit and you literally have 26 years on a cold
>>>> machine.? Wow!? You got a lot of miles on that baby, but...you are going
>>>> to need a new unit sooner or later.? A recharge of your system may not be
>>>> possible if it was an older refrigerant but that is something you could
>>>> look into I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck, if it's working for now, try knocking the temp back a little and
>>>> see if that clears up the icing situation....or...put a fan down there to
>>>> get more air circulation?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Troy Dunn
>>>> Hull#514
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:13:05 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: Dave Hupe <hoopdtwo at yahoo.com<mailto:hoopdtwo at yahoo.com>>
>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold
>> Machine
>> Message-ID: <1955561972.2176766.1599063185577 at mail.yahoo.com<mailto:1955561972.2176766.1599063185577 at mail.yahoo.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Yes, I believe it was John Morrison or Graeme the installed the Nova Cool RT6, with the different freezer box, but on the aft not starboard wall.? I like the RT6? freezer box with the door, but likely still would go for the open compartment RT4 unit that closely matches what I have now.
>> I went back to the boat today and tried it again after shutting it off completely yesterday. Everything seemed to work fine.? The box got cool all around very quickly, I could clearly hear hissing in the box.? The compressor and fan ran fine.? I shut it off and will try it again sometime soon for a longer period to see what happens.??
>> I had a lot of ice built up on the freezer box that I had not defrosted before.? I wonder if defrosting somewhat frequently is beneficial and possibly might change the compressor freezing I? inexperienced???
>> Dave Hupe1994 C320 #32
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 11:17 AM, Doug Treff<doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>> wrote: Dave,
>>
>> I've been eyeing the Nova Kool units too. The LT201-RT4 seems to have the same freezer box we currently have. Interested to hear if the RT6 will fit in a C320 fridge box.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Treff
>> doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>
>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Dave Hupe wrote:
>>> In answer to the appreciated feedback so far, my fan was working fine,
>>> the thermostat was only set to 4, and the compressor body itself was
>>> not hot (I think it normally is very hot to the touch).?
>>> The cold plate was completely covered with ice and in fact several
>>> items in the freezer bin were completely frozen solid.??
>>> I definitely don't plan to throw money at it considering the old age.?
>>> I have taken note of a complete Nova Kool unit recommended by John
>>> Morrison (LT201-RT6) that is selling for $920 now at
>>> www.suremarineservice.com<http://www.suremarineservice.com>. A new complete Adler Barbour Cool Machine
>>> seems to be about $1500 now.
>>> Dave Hupe
>>> 1994 C320 #32
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>> ?
>>> ? On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM, Graeme Clark<cg at skyflyer.co.uk<mailto:cg at skyflyer.co.uk>>
>>> wrote:? I?m no refrigeration expert but recently did a bit of reading
>>> prior to replacing my 1996 unit!
>>>
>>> My I de standing is:-
>>>
>>> If the system is set up correctly the entire evaporator cold plate in
>>> the cooler box should be cool/frosted but the return pipe to the
>>> compressor should not. If it is then that?s a sign that the system is
>>> overcharged with refrigerant
>>>
>>> Conversely an undercharged system will show up because only a portion
>>> of the evaporator plate gets cold
>>>
>>> The cooling effect is when the liquid refrigerant expands through a
>>> small orifice to become a gas
>>>
>>> The compressor then compressed the gas which makes it very hot and the
>>> condenser cools the hot gas (with the aid of a fan) to return the
>>> refrigerant to a liquid and the cycle repeats
>>>
>>> I struggle to see how lack of fan or other overheating would cause
>>> frosting on the compressor or condenser?
>>>
>>> I would suspect a partial blockage of the circuit near the compressor
>>> and condenser creating a restriction and allowing the refrigerant to
>>> expand into a gas downstream of that restriction
>>>
>>> I?m not sure how else you end up with frosting at the compressor end,?
>>> which creates considerable heat!
>>>
>>> But I?m no expert so happy to be schooled!
>>>
>>> However I replaced my system (including evaporator) at a cost of under
>>> $1000. It?s an easy, although fiddly, job
>>>
>>> The new unit draws 3amps max (variable speed so sometimes only 2.5) vs
>>> 6 amps on the old one
>>>
>>> In my humble opinion I wouldn?t spend a cent on fixing your 1994 system
>>> as I suspect it will be the start of continual maintenance costs given
>>> its age. Bite the bullet and replace it if you can afford to do so!
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>> #366
>>> 1996
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone. Excuse typos!
>>>
>>>> On 2 Sep 2020, at 13:04, islgirl3 at aol.com<mailto:islgirl3 at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Dave,Also make sure the fan is working properly.
>>>> RichBarbara Rita 897
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com<mailto:troutwarrior at gmail.com>>
>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com> <C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>>
>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2020 8:49 pm
>>>> Subject: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> Your question doesn?t show up in my email feed just on the site so I had to
>>>> try to redo the subject line.
>>>>
>>>> We have had this problem with a dehumidifier we use in the basement.? We
>>>> have found that turning the dehumidifier down a little seems to help a lot
>>>> to extend the useful life of the unit.
>>>>
>>>> The typical cause of this problem is that your compressor is working harder
>>>> than it was designed to do originally.? This can be because you have the
>>>> fridge turned way up on a not so hot day so there is not enough? hot air
>>>> blowing across the compressor , or because your compressor fan isn't
>>>> blowing quite as? well as it used to, or you are starting to run low on
>>>> refrigerant.
>>>>
>>>> If this is your original unit and you literally have 26 years on a cold
>>>> machine.? Wow!? You got a lot of miles on that baby, but...you are going
>>>> to need a new unit sooner or later.? A recharge of your system may not be
>>>> possible if it was an older refrigerant but that is something you could
>>>> look into I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck, if it's working for now, try knocking the temp back a little and
>>>> see if that clears up the icing situation....or...put a fan down there to
>>>> get more air circulation?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Troy Dunn
>>>> Hull#514
>>> ?
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:53:40 -0400
>> From: Charles Martin <chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>>
>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>
>> Subject: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAHQFa8H7v+NAKYAiFd1c2XWXDKNcL7473WrZQQFTiz6cikG2jg at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAHQFa8H7v+NAKYAiFd1c2XWXDKNcL7473WrZQQFTiz6cikG2jg at mail.gmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Dear Shipmates:
>>
>> My bilge pump recently failed, and I have done a quick and dirty fix while
>> I am waiting for a new pump from Catalina Direct (cheaper but less powerful
>> than the closest model from West Marine or Defender).
>>
>> My question is: the small rule pump I have installed as a temp fix doesn't
>> sit as low as the intake hose did for the factory installed pump; and as a
>> result, after it pumps out any water in the bilge and stops, a lot of water
>> comes back into the bilge from the hose leading up to the above-water
>> through-hull. When that happens, the float switch rises, the pump turns on
>> again, and tries once more to drop the level of the water. This happens
>> over and over--an infinite do loop. I could just raise the float switch,
>> but I'm wondering if a check-valve in the line might be a more elegant
>> solution? Did the diaphram pump installed originally have a built-in check
>> valve? Any thoughts?
>>
>> Best,
>> Chip Martin
>> *Bonaventure* -- Sail #767
>> (410) 231-0199
>> chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 3820, Issue 2
>> ******************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 20:59:58 +0000
> From: Warren Updike <wupdike at hotmail.com<mailto:wupdike at hotmail.com>>
> To: "c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>"
> <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
> Message-ID:
> <MN2PR19MB3101D64C898E96123D470E4ABE2F0 at MN2PR19MB3101.namprd19.prod.outlook.com<mailto:MN2PR19MB3101D64C898E96123D470E4ABE2F0 at MN2PR19MB3101.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I've heard that a check valve in the bilge pump line is not recommended. The concern is that if it failed, it could interfere with the pump function. That said, I did use a check valve for a long time until I started having problems with the pump which I replaced. In the process I removed the flapper in the check valve and have not replaced it.
> As for your question, I suggest you raise the float switch temporarily or get a similar replacement for your original pump.
>
> Warren & Pattie Updike
> C320 1994 #62 ?Warr de Mar?
> Middle River, MD (Chesapeake Bay)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Martin <chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 3:54 PM
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>
> Dear Shipmates:
>
> My bilge pump recently failed, and I have done a quick and dirty fix while I am waiting for a new pump from Catalina Direct (cheaper but less powerful than the closest model from West Marine or Defender).
>
> My question is: the small rule pump I have installed as a temp fix doesn't sit as low as the intake hose did for the factory installed pump; and as a result, after it pumps out any water in the bilge and stops, a lot of water comes back into the bilge from the hose leading up to the above-water through-hull. When that happens, the float switch rises, the pump turns on again, and tries once more to drop the level of the water. This happens over and over--an infinite do loop. I could just raise the float switch, but I'm wondering if a check-valve in the line might be a more elegant solution? Did the diaphram pump installed originally have a built-in check valve? Any thoughts?
>
> Best,
> Chip Martin
> *Bonaventure* -- Sail #767
> (410) 231-0199
> chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:06:17 -0500
> From: "John Frost" <johncfrost at gmail.com<mailto:johncfrost at gmail.com>>
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>, <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
> Message-ID: <110601d6816c$e664dff0$b32e9fd0$@gmail.com<mailto:110601d6816c$e664dff0$b32e9fd0$@gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> ElectricMarine.com has this sound advice:
>
> "They become upset when their bilge pump stops and the water in the hose to the outside rushes back to the bilge, raising the water level.
> People tend to hate water in their bilges.
>
> I hate check valves and here are four reasons why. The pump may have some air in it when it shuts off and the check valve closes. The pump can become air locked the next time you want it to run. "Air lock" means that there is air trapped in the pump below bilge water level keeping the impeller from getting traction on the water. Centrifugal pumps are not self-priming, meaning they must have water at the impeller to start pumping. An air lock can last long enough to sink your boat (presumably any way), and it does not develop every time. One solution is to drill a small hole in the hose below the check valve. This will eliminate the airlock until the hole gets plugged up with lint. In the mean time, it will also squirt a thin stream of water across your bilge which can be unnerving the first time you see it. The new solid-state augmented float switches extend the pump run time after they actually trip off. This gets the pump trying to suck air at the end of it's cycle and in
> creases the possibility of airlock with a check valve in the system.
>
> The second problem with check valves is that you can trap so much water weight above the valve with a high head that the pump can't open the check valve from a standing start. Centrifugal pumps do not like to be stalled out. With the inevitable air cushion below the check valve, the pump sees a gradually increasing back pressure culminating in complete blockage, The check valve can stick shut a little too. The pump may not develop enough static pressure to open the check valve. The inertia of the water moving through the discharge pipe aids the pumping action, if you think about it. An operating pump is a dynamic system with water moving through it. If you stop the water from flowing, you have changed the system conditions enough that water may not always start flowing again. Bilge pumps are puny little things and do not always tolerate unusual conditions.
>
> The third problem with check valves is they leak. The leakage increases as they age. This means that the check valve you installed to stop your little oscillating pump system now just oscillates with a longer period as the water drains back to the bilge at a slower rate. If the pump only runs every 15 minutes this may be tolerable.
>
> The fourth problem with check valves is that they inhibit a good thing. All that water rushing back down the discharge pipe backflushes the debris screen(s) at the intake to the pump. Mostly these screens do not get clogged and this is why.
>
> John
> 2009 C320MKII
> Hull #1118
> Lake Guntersville, AL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com>> On Behalf Of Warren Updike
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 4:00 PM
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>
> I've heard that a check valve in the bilge pump line is not recommended. The concern is that if it failed, it could interfere with the pump function. That said, I did use a check valve for a long time until I started having problems with the pump which I replaced. In the process I removed the flapper in the check valve and have not replaced it.
> As for your question, I suggest you raise the float switch temporarily or get a similar replacement for your original pump.
>
> Warren & Pattie Updike
> C320 1994 #62 ?Warr de Mar?
> Middle River, MD (Chesapeake Bay)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Martin <chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 3:54 PM
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>
> Dear Shipmates:
>
> My bilge pump recently failed, and I have done a quick and dirty fix while I am waiting for a new pump from Catalina Direct (cheaper but less powerful than the closest model from West Marine or Defender).
>
> My question is: the small rule pump I have installed as a temp fix doesn't sit as low as the intake hose did for the factory installed pump; and as a result, after it pumps out any water in the bilge and stops, a lot of water comes back into the bilge from the hose leading up to the above-water through-hull. When that happens, the float switch rises, the pump turns on again, and tries once more to drop the level of the water. This happens over and over--an infinite do loop. I could just raise the float switch, but I'm wondering if a check-valve in the line might be a more elegant solution? Did the diaphram pump installed originally have a built-in check valve? Any thoughts?
>
> Best,
> Chip Martin
> *Bonaventure* -- Sail #767
> (410) 231-0199
> chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:06:17 -0500
> From: "John Frost" <johncfrost at gmail.com<mailto:johncfrost at gmail.com>>
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>, <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
> Message-ID: <110601d6816c$e664dff0$b32e9fd0$@gmail.com<mailto:110601d6816c$e664dff0$b32e9fd0$@gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> ElectricMarine.com has this sound advice:
>
> "They become upset when their bilge pump stops and the water in the hose to the outside rushes back to the bilge, raising the water level.
> People tend to hate water in their bilges.
>
> I hate check valves and here are four reasons why. The pump may have some air in it when it shuts off and the check valve closes. The pump can become air locked the next time you want it to run. "Air lock" means that there is air trapped in the pump below bilge water level keeping the impeller from getting traction on the water. Centrifugal pumps are not self-priming, meaning they must have water at the impeller to start pumping. An air lock can last long enough to sink your boat (presumably any way), and it does not develop every time. One solution is to drill a small hole in the hose below the check valve. This will eliminate the airlock until the hole gets plugged up with lint. In the mean time, it will also squirt a thin stream of water across your bilge which can be unnerving the first time you see it. The new solid-state augmented float switches extend the pump run time after they actually trip off. This gets the pump trying to suck air at the end of it's cycle and in
> creases the possibility of airlock with a check valve in the system.
>
> The second problem with check valves is that you can trap so much water weight above the valve with a high head that the pump can't open the check valve from a standing start. Centrifugal pumps do not like to be stalled out. With the inevitable air cushion below the check valve, the pump sees a gradually increasing back pressure culminating in complete blockage, The check valve can stick shut a little too. The pump may not develop enough static pressure to open the check valve. The inertia of the water moving through the discharge pipe aids the pumping action, if you think about it. An operating pump is a dynamic system with water moving through it. If you stop the water from flowing, you have changed the system conditions enough that water may not always start flowing again. Bilge pumps are puny little things and do not always tolerate unusual conditions.
>
> The third problem with check valves is they leak. The leakage increases as they age. This means that the check valve you installed to stop your little oscillating pump system now just oscillates with a longer period as the water drains back to the bilge at a slower rate. If the pump only runs every 15 minutes this may be tolerable.
>
> The fourth problem with check valves is that they inhibit a good thing. All that water rushing back down the discharge pipe backflushes the debris screen(s) at the intake to the pump. Mostly these screens do not get clogged and this is why.
>
> John
> 2009 C320MKII
> Hull #1118
> Lake Guntersville, AL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com>> On Behalf Of Warren Updike
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 4:00 PM
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>
> I've heard that a check valve in the bilge pump line is not recommended. The concern is that if it failed, it could interfere with the pump function. That said, I did use a check valve for a long time until I started having problems with the pump which I replaced. In the process I removed the flapper in the check valve and have not replaced it.
> As for your question, I suggest you raise the float switch temporarily or get a similar replacement for your original pump.
>
> Warren & Pattie Updike
> C320 1994 #62 ?Warr de Mar?
> Middle River, MD (Chesapeake Bay)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Martin <chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 3:54 PM
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>
> Dear Shipmates:
>
> My bilge pump recently failed, and I have done a quick and dirty fix while I am waiting for a new pump from Catalina Direct (cheaper but less powerful than the closest model from West Marine or Defender).
>
> My question is: the small rule pump I have installed as a temp fix doesn't sit as low as the intake hose did for the factory installed pump; and as a result, after it pumps out any water in the bilge and stops, a lot of water comes back into the bilge from the hose leading up to the above-water through-hull. When that happens, the float switch rises, the pump turns on again, and tries once more to drop the level of the water. This happens over and over--an infinite do loop. I could just raise the float switch, but I'm wondering if a check-valve in the line might be a more elegant solution? Did the diaphram pump installed originally have a built-in check valve? Any thoughts?
>
> Best,
> Chip Martin
> *Bonaventure* -- Sail #767
> (410) 231-0199
> chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:23:57 -0400
> From: Jack Brennan <jackbrennan at bellsouth.net<mailto:jackbrennan at bellsouth.net>>
> To: "C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>" <C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Check valve
> Message-ID:
> <mailman.12776.1599094237.3539.c320-list-catalina320.com at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:mailman.12776.1599094237.3539.c320-list-catalina320.com at lists.catalina320.com>>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I know this is a controversial subject, but I have to disagree. I?ve used check valves on Rule bilge pumps for 15 years without a problem.
>
> If you look at the tiny pump blades on the bottom of the Rule, you will see nothing large is going to get through there. Any flotsam is more likely to jam the Rule than jam the check valve. That would blow the fuse.
>
> The problem with no check valve is that the hose contains a lot of water. It gurgles back into your bilge and will likely set off even a moderately raised pump as it sloshes around, unless you?re willing to let a couple of gallons of water stink up your bilge permanently.
>
> I know many sailors who don?t use automatic pumps at all. The reality is that a small pump won?t stop your boat from sinking due to a serious leak, even if it?s running continuously. A two-inch hole, like a through hull, allows several thousand gallons an hour into the boat.
>
> The standard Catalina pump is 250 or 500 gallons an hour in theory. More likely, a fraction of that due to the lift, etc. A Rule that fits into the bilge is 500 gallons an hour.
>
> Switching the pump on manually when you arrive at the boat allows you to see how much water is getting into the bilge, which gives you early warning on faulty packing, a bad stuffing box hose or a leaky through hull. An automatic pump hides that until it?s really serious.
>
> Jack Brennan
> Sonas, 1998 Catalina 320
> Tierra Verde, Fl.
> Dolphin Cruising Club of Tampa Bay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Fishbust
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 4:18 PM
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Check valve
>
> Chip, check valve would be a no-no for a bilge pump. If it sticks closed, no water can move. If it sticks or obstruction keeps it open, your cycle continues until your battery is dead and then you could wind up with an even bigger problem.
>
> Just raise the float switch.
>
>> On Sep 2, 2020, at 4:01 PM, c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com> wrote:
>>
>> Send C320-list mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web browser, visit
>> http://lists.catalina320.com/listinfo.cgi/c320-list-catalina320.com<http://lists.catalina320.com/listinfo.cgi/c320-list-catalina320.com>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com>
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of C320-list digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine (Doug Treff)
>> 2. Re: Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine (Dave Hupe)
>> 3. Bilge Pumps and Check Valves (Charles Martin)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 11:17:01 -0400
>> From: "Doug Treff" <doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>>
>> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com<mailto:c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold
>> Machine
>> Message-ID: <08ef507e-77a4-4db3-90f7-462576a3937b at www.fastmail.com<mailto:08ef507e-77a4-4db3-90f7-462576a3937b at www.fastmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I've been eyeing the Nova Kool units too. The LT201-RT4 seems to have the same freezer box we currently have. Interested to hear if the RT6 will fit in a C320 fridge box.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Treff
>> doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>
>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Dave Hupe wrote:
>>> In answer to the appreciated feedback so far, my fan was working fine,
>>> the thermostat was only set to 4, and the compressor body itself was
>>> not hot (I think it normally is very hot to the touch).?
>>> The cold plate was completely covered with ice and in fact several
>>> items in the freezer bin were completely frozen solid.??
>>> I definitely don't plan to throw money at it considering the old age.?
>>> I have taken note of a complete Nova Kool unit recommended by John
>>> Morrison (LT201-RT6) that is selling for $920 now at
>>> www.suremarineservice.com<http://www.suremarineservice.com>. A new complete Adler Barbour Cool Machine
>>> seems to be about $1500 now.
>>> Dave Hupe
>>> 1994 C320 #32
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM, Graeme Clark<cg at skyflyer.co.uk<mailto:cg at skyflyer.co.uk>>
>>> wrote: I?m no refrigeration expert but recently did a bit of reading
>>> prior to replacing my 1996 unit!
>>>
>>> My I de standing is:-
>>>
>>> If the system is set up correctly the entire evaporator cold plate in
>>> the cooler box should be cool/frosted but the return pipe to the
>>> compressor should not. If it is then that?s a sign that the system is
>>> overcharged with refrigerant
>>>
>>> Conversely an undercharged system will show up because only a portion
>>> of the evaporator plate gets cold
>>>
>>> The cooling effect is when the liquid refrigerant expands through a
>>> small orifice to become a gas
>>>
>>> The compressor then compressed the gas which makes it very hot and the
>>> condenser cools the hot gas (with the aid of a fan) to return the
>>> refrigerant to a liquid and the cycle repeats
>>>
>>> I struggle to see how lack of fan or other overheating would cause
>>> frosting on the compressor or condenser?
>>>
>>> I would suspect a partial blockage of the circuit near the compressor
>>> and condenser creating a restriction and allowing the refrigerant to
>>> expand into a gas downstream of that restriction
>>>
>>> I?m not sure how else you end up with frosting at the compressor end,?
>>> which creates considerable heat!
>>>
>>> But I?m no expert so happy to be schooled!
>>>
>>> However I replaced my system (including evaporator) at a cost of under
>>> $1000. It?s an easy, although fiddly, job
>>>
>>> The new unit draws 3amps max (variable speed so sometimes only 2.5) vs
>>> 6 amps on the old one
>>>
>>> In my humble opinion I wouldn?t spend a cent on fixing your 1994 system
>>> as I suspect it will be the start of continual maintenance costs given
>>> its age. Bite the bullet and replace it if you can afford to do so!
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>> #366
>>> 1996
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone. Excuse typos!
>>>
>>>> On 2 Sep 2020, at 13:04, islgirl3 at aol.com<mailto:islgirl3 at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Dave,Also make sure the fan is working properly.
>>>> RichBarbara Rita 897
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com<mailto:troutwarrior at gmail.com>>
>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com> <C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>>
>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2020 8:49 pm
>>>> Subject: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> Your question doesn?t show up in my email feed just on the site so I had to
>>>> try to redo the subject line.
>>>>
>>>> We have had this problem with a dehumidifier we use in the basement.? We
>>>> have found that turning the dehumidifier down a little seems to help a lot
>>>> to extend the useful life of the unit.
>>>>
>>>> The typical cause of this problem is that your compressor is working harder
>>>> than it was designed to do originally.? This can be because you have the
>>>> fridge turned way up on a not so hot day so there is not enough? hot air
>>>> blowing across the compressor , or because your compressor fan isn't
>>>> blowing quite as? well as it used to, or you are starting to run low on
>>>> refrigerant.
>>>>
>>>> If this is your original unit and you literally have 26 years on a cold
>>>> machine.? Wow!? You got a lot of miles on that baby, but...you are going
>>>> to need a new unit sooner or later.? A recharge of your system may not be
>>>> possible if it was an older refrigerant but that is something you could
>>>> look into I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck, if it's working for now, try knocking the temp back a little and
>>>> see if that clears up the icing situation....or...put a fan down there to
>>>> get more air circulation?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Troy Dunn
>>>> Hull#514
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:13:05 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: Dave Hupe <hoopdtwo at yahoo.com<mailto:hoopdtwo at yahoo.com>>
>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold
>> Machine
>> Message-ID: <1955561972.2176766.1599063185577 at mail.yahoo.com<mailto:1955561972.2176766.1599063185577 at mail.yahoo.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Yes, I believe it was John Morrison or Graeme the installed the Nova Cool RT6, with the different freezer box, but on the aft not starboard wall.? I like the RT6? freezer box with the door, but likely still would go for the open compartment RT4 unit that closely matches what I have now.
>> I went back to the boat today and tried it again after shutting it off completely yesterday. Everything seemed to work fine.? The box got cool all around very quickly, I could clearly hear hissing in the box.? The compressor and fan ran fine.? I shut it off and will try it again sometime soon for a longer period to see what happens.??
>> I had a lot of ice built up on the freezer box that I had not defrosted before.? I wonder if defrosting somewhat frequently is beneficial and possibly might change the compressor freezing I? inexperienced???
>> Dave Hupe1994 C320 #32
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 11:17 AM, Doug Treff<doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>> wrote: Dave,
>>
>> I've been eyeing the Nova Kool units too. The LT201-RT4 seems to have the same freezer box we currently have. Interested to hear if the RT6 will fit in a C320 fridge box.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Treff
>> doug at treff.us<mailto:doug at treff.us>
>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Dave Hupe wrote:
>>> In answer to the appreciated feedback so far, my fan was working fine,
>>> the thermostat was only set to 4, and the compressor body itself was
>>> not hot (I think it normally is very hot to the touch).?
>>> The cold plate was completely covered with ice and in fact several
>>> items in the freezer bin were completely frozen solid.??
>>> I definitely don't plan to throw money at it considering the old age.?
>>> I have taken note of a complete Nova Kool unit recommended by John
>>> Morrison (LT201-RT6) that is selling for $920 now at
>>> www.suremarineservice.com<http://www.suremarineservice.com>. A new complete Adler Barbour Cool Machine
>>> seems to be about $1500 now.
>>> Dave Hupe
>>> 1994 C320 #32
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>> ?
>>> ? On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM, Graeme Clark<cg at skyflyer.co.uk<mailto:cg at skyflyer.co.uk>>
>>> wrote:? I?m no refrigeration expert but recently did a bit of reading
>>> prior to replacing my 1996 unit!
>>>
>>> My I de standing is:-
>>>
>>> If the system is set up correctly the entire evaporator cold plate in
>>> the cooler box should be cool/frosted but the return pipe to the
>>> compressor should not. If it is then that?s a sign that the system is
>>> overcharged with refrigerant
>>>
>>> Conversely an undercharged system will show up because only a portion
>>> of the evaporator plate gets cold
>>>
>>> The cooling effect is when the liquid refrigerant expands through a
>>> small orifice to become a gas
>>>
>>> The compressor then compressed the gas which makes it very hot and the
>>> condenser cools the hot gas (with the aid of a fan) to return the
>>> refrigerant to a liquid and the cycle repeats
>>>
>>> I struggle to see how lack of fan or other overheating would cause
>>> frosting on the compressor or condenser?
>>>
>>> I would suspect a partial blockage of the circuit near the compressor
>>> and condenser creating a restriction and allowing the refrigerant to
>>> expand into a gas downstream of that restriction
>>>
>>> I?m not sure how else you end up with frosting at the compressor end,?
>>> which creates considerable heat!
>>>
>>> But I?m no expert so happy to be schooled!
>>>
>>> However I replaced my system (including evaporator) at a cost of under
>>> $1000. It?s an easy, although fiddly, job
>>>
>>> The new unit draws 3amps max (variable speed so sometimes only 2.5) vs
>>> 6 amps on the old one
>>>
>>> In my humble opinion I wouldn?t spend a cent on fixing your 1994 system
>>> as I suspect it will be the start of continual maintenance costs given
>>> its age. Bite the bullet and replace it if you can afford to do so!
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>> #366
>>> 1996
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone. Excuse typos!
>>>
>>>> On 2 Sep 2020, at 13:04, islgirl3 at aol.com<mailto:islgirl3 at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Dave,Also make sure the fan is working properly.
>>>> RichBarbara Rita 897
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com<mailto:troutwarrior at gmail.com>>
>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com> <C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>>
>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2020 8:49 pm
>>>> Subject: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> Your question doesn?t show up in my email feed just on the site so I had to
>>>> try to redo the subject line.
>>>>
>>>> We have had this problem with a dehumidifier we use in the basement.? We
>>>> have found that turning the dehumidifier down a little seems to help a lot
>>>> to extend the useful life of the unit.
>>>>
>>>> The typical cause of this problem is that your compressor is working harder
>>>> than it was designed to do originally.? This can be because you have the
>>>> fridge turned way up on a not so hot day so there is not enough? hot air
>>>> blowing across the compressor , or because your compressor fan isn't
>>>> blowing quite as? well as it used to, or you are starting to run low on
>>>> refrigerant.
>>>>
>>>> If this is your original unit and you literally have 26 years on a cold
>>>> machine.? Wow!? You got a lot of miles on that baby, but...you are going
>>>> to need a new unit sooner or later.? A recharge of your system may not be
>>>> possible if it was an older refrigerant but that is something you could
>>>> look into I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck, if it's working for now, try knocking the temp back a little and
>>>> see if that clears up the icing situation....or...put a fan down there to
>>>> get more air circulation?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Troy Dunn
>>>> Hull#514
>>> ?
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:53:40 -0400
>> From: Charles Martin <chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>>
>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>
>> Subject: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAHQFa8H7v+NAKYAiFd1c2XWXDKNcL7473WrZQQFTiz6cikG2jg at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAHQFa8H7v+NAKYAiFd1c2XWXDKNcL7473WrZQQFTiz6cikG2jg at mail.gmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Dear Shipmates:
>>
>> My bilge pump recently failed, and I have done a quick and dirty fix while
>> I am waiting for a new pump from Catalina Direct (cheaper but less powerful
>> than the closest model from West Marine or Defender).
>>
>> My question is: the small rule pump I have installed as a temp fix doesn't
>> sit as low as the intake hose did for the factory installed pump; and as a
>> result, after it pumps out any water in the bilge and stops, a lot of water
>> comes back into the bilge from the hose leading up to the above-water
>> through-hull. When that happens, the float switch rises, the pump turns on
>> again, and tries once more to drop the level of the water. This happens
>> over and over--an infinite do loop. I could just raise the float switch,
>> but I'm wondering if a check-valve in the line might be a more elegant
>> solution? Did the diaphram pump installed originally have a built-in check
>> valve? Any thoughts?
>>
>> Best,
>> Chip Martin
>> *Bonaventure* -- Sail #767
>> (410) 231-0199
>> chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 3820, Issue 2
>> ******************************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:34:01 -0400
> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com<mailto:troutwarrior at gmail.com>>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] How far offshore?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+rGV8YuDp-xXZVz0HDHG6weFPf8H5wuLKCKmfMSe07+nCkKYQ at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CA+rGV8YuDp-xXZVz0HDHG6weFPf8H5wuLKCKmfMSe07+nCkKYQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Guy
>
> Right...lots of things to think about.
>
> I could be persuaded to attempt circumnavigation of DelMarVa IFF we rented
> a liferaft and an EPIRB. That would be about all I would be willing to
> attempt in a C320. True story...just last night I was musing on this and
> went to the ARC site to see what the distance was for the ocean leg.... 150
> miles... So there I was calculating fuel consumption at 2500 rpms, speed
> thru water, current, etc. I concluded that in order to ensure a speedy
> trip even in the likely event of no wind in August....I would probably want
> to carry 10 extra gallons of diesel just to be safe.... of course you
> could hug the coast and tuck in at Chincoteague and again at Ocean City,
> but....that would add a minimum of two days to the trip.
>
> I can see how you might be able to completely refit the C320 to make it
> work off soundings...I still think you would not enjoy the feel of the
> ride...
>
> FWIW
>
> Troy
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 20:50:24 -0400
> From: Charles Martin <chiprmartin at gmail.com<mailto:chiprmartin at gmail.com>>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com<mailto:C320-List at catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Check valve
> Message-ID:
> <CAHQFa8GCSpTvTToCgYQbf_LF-v1+5UYaNkxvS+aFW47h6jO1tQ at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAHQFa8GCSpTvTToCgYQbf_LF-v1+5UYaNkxvS+aFW47h6jO1tQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> What great feedback, Jack, John and Warren. All interesting stuff. I
> watch this chatter continuously and am amazed at the depth and breadth of
> practical knowledge among the C320 fleet. Thanks!
>
> Best,
> Chip Martin
> *Bonaventure* -- Sail # 767
> (410) 231-0199
> chiprmartin at gmail.com
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 5:24 PM Jack Brennan <jackbrennan at bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I know this is a controversial subject, but I have to disagree. I?ve used
>> check valves on Rule bilge pumps for 15 years without a problem.
>>
>> If you look at the tiny pump blades on the bottom of the Rule, you will
>> see nothing large is going to get through there. Any flotsam is more likely
>> to jam the Rule than jam the check valve. That would blow the fuse.
>>
>> The problem with no check valve is that the hose contains a lot of water.
>> It gurgles back into your bilge and will likely set off even a moderately
>> raised pump as it sloshes around, unless you?re willing to let a couple of
>> gallons of water stink up your bilge permanently.
>>
>> I know many sailors who don?t use automatic pumps at all. The reality is
>> that a small pump won?t stop your boat from sinking due to a serious leak,
>> even if it?s running continuously. A two-inch hole, like a through hull,
>> allows several thousand gallons an hour into the boat.
>>
>> The standard Catalina pump is 250 or 500 gallons an hour in theory. More
>> likely, a fraction of that due to the lift, etc. A Rule that fits into the
>> bilge is 500 gallons an hour.
>>
>> Switching the pump on manually when you arrive at the boat allows you to
>> see how much water is getting into the bilge, which gives you early warning
>> on faulty packing, a bad stuffing box hose or a leaky through hull. An
>> automatic pump hides that until it?s really serious.
>>
>> Jack Brennan
>> Sonas, 1998 Catalina 320
>> Tierra Verde, Fl.
>> Dolphin Cruising Club of Tampa Bay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Fishbust
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 4:18 PM
>> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
>> Subject: [C320-list] Check valve
>>
>> Chip, check valve would be a no-no for a bilge pump. If it sticks closed,
>> no water can move. If it sticks or obstruction keeps it open, your cycle
>> continues until your battery is dead and then you could wind up with an
>> even bigger problem.
>>
>> Just raise the float switch.
>>
>>> On Sep 2, 2020, at 4:01 PM, c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Send C320-list mailing list submissions to
>>> c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web browser, visit
>>> http://lists.catalina320.com/listinfo.cgi/c320-list-catalina320.com<http://lists.catalina320.com/listinfo.cgi/c320-list-catalina320.com>
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> c320-list-owner at lists.catalina320.com
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of C320-list digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine (Doug Treff)
>>> 2. Re: Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine (Dave Hupe)
>>> 3. Bilge Pumps and Check Valves (Charles Martin)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 11:17:01 -0400
>>> From: "Doug Treff" <doug at treff.us>
>>> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold
>>> Machine
>>> Message-ID: <08ef507e-77a4-4db3-90f7-462576a3937b at www.fastmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> I've been eyeing the Nova Kool units too. The LT201-RT4 seems to have
>> the same freezer box we currently have. Interested to hear if the RT6 will
>> fit in a C320 fridge box.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Doug Treff
>>> doug at treff.us
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Dave Hupe wrote:
>>>> In answer to the appreciated feedback so far, my fan was working fine,
>>>> the thermostat was only set to 4, and the compressor body itself was
>>>> not hot (I think it normally is very hot to the touch).?
>>>> The cold plate was completely covered with ice and in fact several
>>>> items in the freezer bin were completely frozen solid.??
>>>> I definitely don't plan to throw money at it considering the old age.?
>>>> I have taken note of a complete Nova Kool unit recommended by John
>>>> Morrison (LT201-RT6) that is selling for $920 now at
>>>> www.suremarineservice.com<http://www.suremarineservice.com>. A new complete Adler Barbour Cool Machine
>>>> seems to be about $1500 now.
>>>> Dave Hupe
>>>> 1994 C320 #32
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM, Graeme Clark<cg at skyflyer.co.uk>
>>>> wrote: I?m no refrigeration expert but recently did a bit of reading
>>>> prior to replacing my 1996 unit!
>>>>
>>>> My I de standing is:-
>>>>
>>>> If the system is set up correctly the entire evaporator cold plate in
>>>> the cooler box should be cool/frosted but the return pipe to the
>>>> compressor should not. If it is then that?s a sign that the system is
>>>> overcharged with refrigerant
>>>>
>>>> Conversely an undercharged system will show up because only a portion
>>>> of the evaporator plate gets cold
>>>>
>>>> The cooling effect is when the liquid refrigerant expands through a
>>>> small orifice to become a gas
>>>>
>>>> The compressor then compressed the gas which makes it very hot and the
>>>> condenser cools the hot gas (with the aid of a fan) to return the
>>>> refrigerant to a liquid and the cycle repeats
>>>>
>>>> I struggle to see how lack of fan or other overheating would cause
>>>> frosting on the compressor or condenser?
>>>>
>>>> I would suspect a partial blockage of the circuit near the compressor
>>>> and condenser creating a restriction and allowing the refrigerant to
>>>> expand into a gas downstream of that restriction
>>>>
>>>> I?m not sure how else you end up with frosting at the compressor end,?
>>>> which creates considerable heat!
>>>>
>>>> But I?m no expert so happy to be schooled!
>>>>
>>>> However I replaced my system (including evaporator) at a cost of under
>>>> $1000. It?s an easy, although fiddly, job
>>>>
>>>> The new unit draws 3amps max (variable speed so sometimes only 2.5) vs
>>>> 6 amps on the old one
>>>>
>>>> In my humble opinion I wouldn?t spend a cent on fixing your 1994 system
>>>> as I suspect it will be the start of continual maintenance costs given
>>>> its age. Bite the bullet and replace it if you can afford to do so!
>>>>
>>>> Graeme
>>>> #366
>>>> 1996
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my phone. Excuse typos!
>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Sep 2020, at 13:04, islgirl3 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ?Dave,Also make sure the fan is working properly.
>>>>> RichBarbara Rita 897
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com <C320-List at catalina320.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2020 8:49 pm
>>>>> Subject: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> Your question doesn?t show up in my email feed just on the site so I
>> had to
>>>>> try to redo the subject line.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have had this problem with a dehumidifier we use in the basement.?
>> We
>>>>> have found that turning the dehumidifier down a little seems to help a
>> lot
>>>>> to extend the useful life of the unit.
>>>>>
>>>>> The typical cause of this problem is that your compressor is working
>> harder
>>>>> than it was designed to do originally.? This can be because you have
>> the
>>>>> fridge turned way up on a not so hot day so there is not enough? hot
>> air
>>>>> blowing across the compressor , or because your compressor fan isn't
>>>>> blowing quite as? well as it used to, or you are starting to run low on
>>>>> refrigerant.
>>>>>
>>>>> If this is your original unit and you literally have 26 years on a cold
>>>>> machine.? Wow!? You got a lot of miles on that baby, but...you are
>> going
>>>>> to need a new unit sooner or later.? A recharge of your system may not
>> be
>>>>> possible if it was an older refrigerant but that is something you could
>>>>> look into I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck, if it's working for now, try knocking the temp back a
>> little and
>>>>> see if that clears up the icing situation....or...put a fan down there
>> to
>>>>> get more air circulation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Troy Dunn
>>>>> Hull#514
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:13:05 +0000 (UTC)
>>> From: Dave Hupe <hoopdtwo at yahoo.com>
>>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold
>>> Machine
>>> Message-ID: <1955561972.2176766.1599063185577 at mail.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>
>>> Yes, I believe it was John Morrison or Graeme the installed the Nova
>> Cool RT6, with the different freezer box, but on the aft not starboard
>> wall.? I like the RT6? freezer box with the door, but likely still would go
>> for the open compartment RT4 unit that closely matches what I have now.
>>> I went back to the boat today and tried it again after shutting it off
>> completely yesterday. Everything seemed to work fine.? The box got cool all
>> around very quickly, I could clearly hear hissing in the box.? The
>> compressor and fan ran fine.? I shut it off and will try it again sometime
>> soon for a longer period to see what happens.??
>>> I had a lot of ice built up on the freezer box that I had not defrosted
>> before.? I wonder if defrosting somewhat frequently is beneficial and
>> possibly might change the compressor freezing I? inexperienced???
>>> Dave Hupe1994 C320 #32
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 11:17 AM, Doug Treff<doug at treff.us> wrote:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> I've been eyeing the Nova Kool units too. The LT201-RT4 seems to have
>> the same freezer box we currently have. Interested to hear if the RT6 will
>> fit in a C320 fridge box.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Doug Treff
>>> doug at treff.us
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Dave Hupe wrote:
>>>> In answer to the appreciated feedback so far, my fan was working fine,
>>>> the thermostat was only set to 4, and the compressor body itself was
>>>> not hot (I think it normally is very hot to the touch).?
>>>> The cold plate was completely covered with ice and in fact several
>>>> items in the freezer bin were completely frozen solid.??
>>>> I definitely don't plan to throw money at it considering the old age.?
>>>> I have taken note of a complete Nova Kool unit recommended by John
>>>> Morrison (LT201-RT6) that is selling for $920 now at
>>>> www.suremarineservice.com<http://www.suremarineservice.com>. A new complete Adler Barbour Cool Machine
>>>> seems to be about $1500 now.
>>>> Dave Hupe
>>>> 1994 C320 #32
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>> ?
>>>> ? On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM, Graeme Clark<cg at skyflyer.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:? I?m no refrigeration expert but recently did a bit of reading
>>>> prior to replacing my 1996 unit!
>>>>
>>>> My I de standing is:-
>>>>
>>>> If the system is set up correctly the entire evaporator cold plate in
>>>> the cooler box should be cool/frosted but the return pipe to the
>>>> compressor should not. If it is then that?s a sign that the system is
>>>> overcharged with refrigerant
>>>>
>>>> Conversely an undercharged system will show up because only a portion
>>>> of the evaporator plate gets cold
>>>>
>>>> The cooling effect is when the liquid refrigerant expands through a
>>>> small orifice to become a gas
>>>>
>>>> The compressor then compressed the gas which makes it very hot and the
>>>> condenser cools the hot gas (with the aid of a fan) to return the
>>>> refrigerant to a liquid and the cycle repeats
>>>>
>>>> I struggle to see how lack of fan or other overheating would cause
>>>> frosting on the compressor or condenser?
>>>>
>>>> I would suspect a partial blockage of the circuit near the compressor
>>>> and condenser creating a restriction and allowing the refrigerant to
>>>> expand into a gas downstream of that restriction
>>>>
>>>> I?m not sure how else you end up with frosting at the compressor end,?
>>>> which creates considerable heat!
>>>>
>>>> But I?m no expert so happy to be schooled!
>>>>
>>>> However I replaced my system (including evaporator) at a cost of under
>>>> $1000. It?s an easy, although fiddly, job
>>>>
>>>> The new unit draws 3amps max (variable speed so sometimes only 2.5) vs
>>>> 6 amps on the old one
>>>>
>>>> In my humble opinion I wouldn?t spend a cent on fixing your 1994 system
>>>> as I suspect it will be the start of continual maintenance costs given
>>>> its age. Bite the bullet and replace it if you can afford to do so!
>>>>
>>>> Graeme
>>>> #366
>>>> 1996
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my phone. Excuse typos!
>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Sep 2020, at 13:04, islgirl3 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ?Dave,Also make sure the fan is working properly.
>>>>> RichBarbara Rita 897
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com <C320-List at catalina320.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2020 8:49 pm
>>>>> Subject: [C320-list] Frozen Compressor on Adler Barber Cold Machine
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> Your question doesn?t show up in my email feed just on the site so I
>> had to
>>>>> try to redo the subject line.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have had this problem with a dehumidifier we use in the basement.?
>> We
>>>>> have found that turning the dehumidifier down a little seems to help a
>> lot
>>>>> to extend the useful life of the unit.
>>>>>
>>>>> The typical cause of this problem is that your compressor is working
>> harder
>>>>> than it was designed to do originally.? This can be because you have
>> the
>>>>> fridge turned way up on a not so hot day so there is not enough? hot
>> air
>>>>> blowing across the compressor , or because your compressor fan isn't
>>>>> blowing quite as? well as it used to, or you are starting to run low on
>>>>> refrigerant.
>>>>>
>>>>> If this is your original unit and you literally have 26 years on a cold
>>>>> machine.? Wow!? You got a lot of miles on that baby, but...you are
>> going
>>>>> to need a new unit sooner or later.? A recharge of your system may not
>> be
>>>>> possible if it was an older refrigerant but that is something you could
>>>>> look into I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck, if it's working for now, try knocking the temp back a
>> little and
>>>>> see if that clears up the icing situation....or...put a fan down there
>> to
>>>>> get more air circulation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Troy Dunn
>>>>> Hull#514
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:53:40 -0400
>>> From: Charles Martin <chiprmartin at gmail.com>
>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>> Subject: [C320-list] Bilge Pumps and Check Valves
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CAHQFa8H7v+NAKYAiFd1c2XWXDKNcL7473WrZQQFTiz6cikG2jg at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>
>>> Dear Shipmates:
>>>
>>> My bilge pump recently failed, and I have done a quick and dirty fix
>> while
>>> I am waiting for a new pump from Catalina Direct (cheaper but less
>> powerful
>>> than the closest model from West Marine or Defender).
>>>
>>> My question is: the small rule pump I have installed as a temp fix
>> doesn't
>>> sit as low as the intake hose did for the factory installed pump; and as
>> a
>>> result, after it pumps out any water in the bilge and stops, a lot of
>> water
>>> comes back into the bilge from the hose leading up to the above-water
>>> through-hull. When that happens, the float switch rises, the pump turns
>> on
>>> again, and tries once more to drop the level of the water. This happens
>>> over and over--an infinite do loop. I could just raise the float switch,
>>> but I'm wondering if a check-valve in the line might be a more elegant
>>> solution? Did the diaphram pump installed originally have a built-in
>> check
>>> valve? Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Chip Martin
>>> *Bonaventure* -- Sail #767
>>> (410) 231-0199
>>> chiprmartin at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 3820, Issue 2
>>> ******************************************
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 3820, Issue 3
> ******************************************
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