[C320-list] Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Bill Culbertson
billculb_a2 at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 14 20:03:43 PST 2005
I'll chime in with Len and Allan re: "very well said, Richard".
Here is a thought. OK it stems from my being in the Engineering field (albeit software) . In Engineering, one of the first questions is 'what problem are we trying to solve?'. Engineers in my experience and myself included, have a hair trigger for jumping into brainstorming possible solutions. It's what we love to do. There is a standing joke around my company when someone comes up with an idea with no apparent use that "it is a solution looking for a problem". You'd be surprised how often this comes up in real life work situations. Folks jump in with both feet trying to figure out how to fix something. Sometimes the right thing to do is to step back and ask if something is broken.
Any organization has a rubber-stamp goal of increasing its membership. Fine. I've been a member of our association for the five years I've owned my boat. In that time, it's come up often that we should increase our membership. So far so good. Sending out appeals, extoling the virtues of membership and support, touting Mainsheet and touting the annual regattas/meetings (3 of which I've attended and totally enjoyed!!). I'm totally fine with that. But at the end of the day and the end of each year, if our membership stays fixed, so what? Is there a problem? Please think about it.
Each annual meeting I've been to, the treasurer's report has indicated that we are flush with cash as an organization. That's great. It gives us huge flexibility, indicates we are healthy, allows us to do things we want to do without worry. Within the last 18 months or so on Jeff Hare's recommendation, we switched our website to a commercial provider for a measily $90/year. Financial health ensures we can easily do this sort of thing and that we can sponsor the annual regatta/meeting each year which so many of us enjoy so much, and it allows us to explore pretty much anything else we'd like to consider.
On paper it sounds great to "increase membership". It's kind of embarrasing that well over 1000 boats have been built and our membership is fairly fixed. I don't recall the numbers offhand but I think it is in the range of a few hundred. So say 200 of 1000 isn't a high percentage, to pick a number. But so what?
My bottom line is that to start denying services to non-members is a major change of direction from our past. Several folks have chimed in that there are significant downsides to this and I agree with them. So before we start this change of direction and denial of service and incur its negative effects, I ask "what problem are we trying to solve by doing this?". I submit that we don't have a problem that needs solving. So we shouldn't start messing with things to fix this non-problem. The organization is healthy as is. We have good funding, excellent cash reserves, a bunch of committed, active, dues-paying members, a great set of committed volunteer leaders. Tell me again the problem?
Is our problem that the percentage of owners who are members is not "high enough"? Why does that constitute something which needs fixing? Sure we have a goal to increase membership. I'm for that. But changing things to fix this is a mistake IMHO.
Having said all of the above, "you better betcha" that if our membership numbers start to fall off and/or if our funding starts to dry up, then it's an immediately different situation which does need action to address.
Just like RichardG and others, I joined because it is the right thing to do in my particular view of the world. I want to keep the association healthy on principle and because it's good for the 320 line. I was a member of USYRU (aka USSA) for 15 years and never raced a minute during that time. I just joined because it was good for sailing. We all spend a ton of $$ on magazines and a bigger ton of $$ on boat stuff. I honestly don't think that as an association we need to do anything to provide value for people's membership. Joiners will join, non-joiners will not. It's only folks on the fence for whom increasing value of membership will affect our membership #'s. I'd bet that signing up ALL of those folks wouldn't change our membership numbers enough to justify the change of direction needed to get them to sign up. That's just my hunch - there is no data behind that guess. It may turn out that on average 20% of people buying a 320 will join on principle. If that is true,
then we'll have our 20% year after year reliably without lifting a finger. If we keep lists & websites open so that the buyers form a steady stream then we have a steady influx and we're fine year after year.
My $.02
-bill
Bill Culbertson
Harmony #859
Richard Grunt <RFGrunt at comcast.net> wrote:
I have owned my 320 since 1998, and prior a catalina 27 since 1987. In general I am not a joiner, and the regattas aren't exactly my cup of tea ( I did enjoy meeting many other members 3 years ago in Baltimore the only annual meeting I have ever attended) but I wouldn't think of not renewing my membership in the association. I appreciate the fact that we have a group, with officers, who keep things running, and a webmaster who has invested a lot of time and effort on a volunteer basis to get our own list up and running. Without an association this will all die. A very important point is that the value of our boats is greatly increased by the catalina organizations. They provide catalina owners a resource that other boaters don't necessarily have, and this in turn helps to maintain re-sale value - not that I plan to sell any time soon. The lists and probably the web site should probably remain open and free. However, those of us who use theses regularly should willingly chip in - I
mean $24 for the list and the mainsheet and the meetings, and the commaradarie - its a bargain, and I feel the least I can do to contribute to the effort. Its not going to keep happening without some support. I would certainly rather support our own organization as long as we have members willing to put in the time, than a commercial operation that may or may not be there tomorrow. So any of you who are regular users of the list and don't contribute should do so because it is the right thing to do, and in the end we all benefit, whether or not we take advantage of every activity offered. I am posting this to both the sailnet and c320.org lists since there have been so many posts to both lists on this subject, but I intend to use the organization list going forward.
Richard Grunt
514
---- Original Message -----
From: Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com
To: c320
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
I was waiting for you to chime in on that one! :)
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Wes.Giles
Sent: 11/13/2005 05:25 PM
To: c320"
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Picture me attempting to hold back and keeping my mouth shut............
Wes
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Orlando.Duran
Sent: 11/13/2005 05:16 PM
To: c320"
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Pontificate a lot....it has worked well for me.... :)
cuba libre 2
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Hare [Catalina at thehares.com]
Sent: 11/13/2005 05:13 PM
To: c320"
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
How do I get a job like that. :)
At 08:02 PM 11/13/2005, you wrote:
Jeff,
This are just my thoughts without getting to the nitty gritty....think of me as a consultant, I don't actually DO anything, I only think up of things and then suggest them.... :)
cuba libre 2
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Hare [Catalina at thehares.com]
Sent: 11/13/2005 04:25 PM
To: c320"
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Hi Guys,
How do you propose we tie Nanosec's MS Access database (which
we do not have dynamic access to at this time) into the Website's
MySQL based authentication and access rights system so that when
you pay your bill, you magically get access and if it expires, you don't?
Not gonna happen if I have to do it... Sorry, but I don't have time
to burn on making already complicated stuff more complicated and
exclusionary..
Cheers!
-JeffH
At 07:04 PM 11/13/2005, you wrote:
Dennis,
Again, I am not in favor or closing the mailing list to non-members, I AM in favor of making parts of the web site (tech notes, etc) available only to Assc members.....
I think any organization that charges dues should make SOME things available only to dues paying members....I agree, Mainsheet (to me) is not a big deal, hell it's mostly a forum for folks who flunked creative writing in college......and you're right, the annual regattas are not everyone's cup of tea and I respect that....that said though, there has to be some things available only to members in order to have a compelling reason to join (and pay dues).....
cuba libre 2
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Harris [dharris02 at vol.com]
Sent: 11/13/2005 03:49 PM
To: c320"
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Another View....Maybe I've already been kicked off, but here is another attempt to get my view posted, that of a non-member, but avid C320 list follower. Please consider (and if you've already seen it, please excuse the resend.):
There's always another view. Here goes from a non-member. I am not a joiner of orgainizations. I will likely never attend the orgainization events, because of distance, expense, and preference. Nothing against the regattas, it's just not my cup of tea. As for Mainsheet, you don't have to be a member to take it....I don't, preferring Sail and Cruising World. I follow the mail list, which until recently, was not a C320 organization document. The predominent C320 list (one with most members, most participation) is the one I want to follow, regardless of who sponsers it. During the 6 years that I have followed it, I have found the list (first Sailnet (bought a zodiac from them), then Sail Jazz (same people) and now C320 Org.) very helpful. I have obtained useful information from time to time from other owners who have been very helpful....the most recent being in the past week when two people gave me advice on removing compass to tighten screws to fix loose pedestal guard. Dick Walker's
instructions were especially helpful. But it's not been a one way street. From time to time, I've participated by trying to help fellow C320 owners where I could by offering some personal inputs. Occasionally, I go to the C320 org. and enjoy the articles there and the photos of various owners and their boats. Still if I have to join the organization to have access to the mail lists, I'll go away....no big loss to the organization, but I fail to see what they gain either. Others like me will gravitate to free lists like Sailnet. That doesn't help the C320 organization, does it? The inputs from and benefits for various owners becomes fragmented as the number of lists and restrictions grow, so, to me, all seem to suffer.
It's possible that some non-members of the C320 organization, through visiting your website might become interested and join, whereas, if they have join, pay-up first (i.e buy into a plain wrapped, sealed package without not knowing what they are getting), they will just go away.
Before I bought my boat, I was considering three different boats. One of the most notable features in my search for information on each boat before buying was that the C320 organization let one visit the site, learn first hand experiences of others, determine whether they really liked the boat. Other boat types had organizations also, but the message was...join or you'll learn nothing from us....a real turn off. The C320 organization was different, open and helpful, glad to have me if I wanted to join, and if I didn't, would still accept and help me on their lists. No doubt there are others who have decided to buy C320's with the organization's input, whether known or not.
I hope you will think a bit more before you summarily close the list and website to non-members. It's been great like it has been in the past.
Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com wrote:
Well, I agree with you, my wise and sage advice should have a price.... :)
cuba libre 2
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Weiner" [esquirecatering at rcn.com]
Sent: 11/13/2005 11:09 AM
To: c320"
Subject: RE: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
You are, as always, right.
Remember, I am now, and always have been a member of the association. I am a card carrying member as a matter of fact.
However, there are several boats in my marina that are not part of the association. What very tangible benefits can I get them to join? They pay a lot more to join the yacht club, which has tangible benefits.
Perhaps the best thing to do would be require membership if they want to receive e-mails from you. You are worth every penny of the fee.
Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com [ mailto:Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 11:05 AM
To: c320
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Adam,
My suggestion was to close off that portion of the website that deals with tech issues to members only....that to me would be the value part of joining the Assc....
cuba libre 2
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Weiner" [esquirecatering at rcn.com]
Sent: 11/13/2005 10:14 AM
To: c320"
Subject: RE: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
I think my point was, what have I paid nearly $200 for over the last six years to be part of the association? The Mainsheet is OK, but I wouldn't buy it as a sailing magazine if I did not get it "for free" since only a few pages talk about 320's. Very few of the members go to the regattas, and since the e-mail list is such a great benefit as everyone agrees, and it is free, why join the association. (Gosh, you don't even get a burgee when you join the association, you have to buy it extra.)
Regarding the upcoming regatta, I have met Dick Walker and seen the Coronado Yacht Club, and I did it via the e-mail list, not via the association. Don't get me wrong, both are wonderful, but I did not do either as part of the association.
I guess my complaint is that a number of people on this list screamed, yelled, and sent out personal slams when Sailjazz wanted to charge for the list, yet we are asked to join an association for what end?
By the way Orlando, why pay to join the association to read technical articles when the same articles are on the website? Does the website require membership in the association? If not, kind of proves my point. If so, then why should this list be any different?
Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com [ mailto:Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 9:14 AM
To: c320
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
I think you misunderstood my posting, I am for a 'free' list service....my musing was what about making the tech portions of the website available for members only.....that was my point about making membership value-add.
I'm no saying we should add charges additional to the Assc membership, simply narrowing the scope of what you get WITHOUT Assc dues...
cuba libre 2
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
--------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Van Vessem" [john at honn.com]
Sent: 11/13/2005 08:34 AM
To: c320"
Subject: FW: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
-----Original Message-----
From: John Van Vessem [mailto:john at honn.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:27 AM
To: 'c320'
Subject: RE: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Orlando,
The "milk" only has any value if everyone belongs. If all C320 owners are spread over 3 or 4 different email lists it will diminish our collective intelligence. The real value to this email list, or any email list, is the ability to pose a question or problem to a large repository of experience. There is of course the option to join all the mail lists, but for me I don't have the time to peruse duplicate emails. Considering that the two email lists I have been on have both had problems, one because of bankruptcy and one because the owners wanted to get paid for their work only strengthens the argument that we (meaning C320 owners) would do well to stick with and support our own non-profit organization so we won't have to be subjected to outside influences shutting the list down.
John (Sojourn 645)
-----Original Message-----
From: Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com [ mailto:Orlando.Duran at AveryDennison.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:31 PM
To: c320
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
Perhaps not the list it self, if you look at either the 36 or 30 Assc (not exactly sure which one) but they only allow Assc members to access their Tech Tips or to receive the Tech CD....in any case, the point is to make membership in the Assc have a more value-add than just the Mainsheet.....why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free..... :)
cuba libre 2
--------------------------
Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
--------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Monaco [russgm at yahoo.com]
Sent: 11/12/2005 04:19 PM
To: c320"
Subject: RE: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
well there are many benfits to joining the asociation the most obvious of which is the quarterly publication Mainsheet. Also, the annual Reggatta would certainly count as a valuable asset. I would like to know are you suggesting people not join the association? or are you suggesting that the organization charge for access to the web site. If it is the later, than how would you propose potential buyers to look in to our boat? Would you force them to join the association to simply to ask questions about a boat they are thinking of buying? this is just one of numerous reasons why I do not believe we should charge for access to our e-mail list, by the way if we charge for access to the e-mail list, then why join our fee based e-mail list, when cheryl at Sailjazz at the moment is charging $12 to join her e-mail list, or is it $36? Or is it some other number yet that I missed? I view our e-mail list as a service our association provides to all C320 owners, and I hope that once the join our
community they will join our association to obtain its other benefits, things they can learn about while on the list. Do you really want to exclude non-members from this list?
russ monaco
Commodore C320IA
Escape 621
Stamford, Ct
Adam Weiner wrote:
Then why join the C320 association? (Note, I just mailed my check.)
Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Mielenhausen [mailto:mielen at cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:03 AM
To: c320
Subject: Re: [c320] The SailNet Email Lists are back on line!
I agree, Dick. We should probably check here from time to time and
direct
owners to the organization site as they are more likely to find the
SailNet group first.
It should be pointed out that paid organization membership is not
required
to access the site.
Karl Mielenhausen
2000 Catalina 320 #690 "Silver Lining"
New Bern, NC
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:37:34 -0500, Richard A. Walker
wrote:
> I personally hope we now all stay on the C-320 list that is part of
> our C-320IA organization which is C320-List at catalina320.com
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dick Walker
>
> C-320 (687) WindWalker II
> 740 Olive Ave.
> Coronado, CA 92118-2136
> 619.435.8986
------------------------------------------------
_/) This list brought to you by the New Sailnet
_/) www..sailnet.com
_/) FAQ http://www.sailnet.com/listmgr/help/
-/) To unsubscribe visit http://www.sailnet.com/listhelp/index.cfm and
follow the directions
------------------------------------------------
_/) This list brought to you by the New Sailnet
_/) www..sailnet.com
_/) FAQ http://www.sailnet.com/listmgr/help/
-/) To unsubscribe visit http://www.sailnet.com/listhelp/index.cfm and follow the directions
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. ------------------------------------------------ _/) This list brought to you by the New Sailnet _/) www.sailnet.com _/) FAQ http://www.sailnet.com/listmgr/help/ -/) To unsubscribe visit http://www.sailnet.com/listhelp/index.cfm and follow the directions
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity
to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or
other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this
information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient
is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the
sender and delete the material from any computer.
------------------------------------------------
_/) This list brought to you by the New Sailnet
_/) www..sailnet.com
_/) FAQ http://www.sailnet.com/listmgr/help/
-/) To unsubscribe visit http://www.sailnet.com/listhelp/index.cfm and follow the directions
=== message truncated ===
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
More information about the C320-list
mailing list