[C320-list] FW: Re: Single Line Reefing

Tue Jun 13 19:18:15 PDT 2006

In the "IMG 266" diagram it still looks like the clue cringle (grommet) has 
a line that must pass through and pull it down so it acts as a block. I 
guess if you put a real block at the clue cringle it would help, but then it 
might wear on the mainsail.

CRA
Rosebud #882

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Cardoza" <dave at avaloncon.com>
To: "'C320-List'" <C320-List at catalina320.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [C320-list] FW: Re: Single Line Reefing

>I never considered tying it off at the cringle.  If you couple that with 
>the
> block at the outhaul end that may be the best of the bunch.
>
> Things to consider.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com
> [mailto:C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Scott Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:44 PM
> To: C320-List
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] FW: Re: Single Line Reefing
>
> David:  Correct that it does not add mechanical advantage.  But if you
> rig things correctly then the shuttle block inside the boom actually
> reduces total friction rather than increasing it.  Consider that with
> the usual single line system (that really only uses a single line
> straight through the boom) ever inch of line that you pull out of the
> aft part of the system has to pass through the tack cringle.  Plus
> additional line has to pass through the tack cringle in order to pull
> the tack cringle itself down.  This means that about 3 inches of line
> has to go through the tack cringle for every inch you move the sail, and
> that creates a lot of friction.  With the shuttle block you can rig
> things so that no line passes through the tack cringle when you reef,
> and that reduces friction a lot.  See Jeff Church's drawing at
>
>  http://www.catalina320.com/gallery/Alternative-Route/IMG_0226
>
> On my boat the line to the tack goes through the cringle and comes back
> down to deadend at the gooseneck.  That puts a bit more friction back
> into the system relative to JeffC's drawing, but not nearly as much as
> you get if you eliminate the shuttle block completely.  You can
> eliminate even more friction by replacing the shuttle block with higher
> quality parts, but I haven't felt a need.
>
> Scott Thompson
> Surprise, 653
>
>
> David Cardoza wrote:
>> Looking at your photo and remembering how its set up there is a net 0
>> mechanical advantage with this setup. It only adds friction.  You pick up
>> 2:1 at the mast end of the boom then get hit with 1:2 at the stern end of
>> the boom.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com
>> [mailto:C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com] On Behalf Of David Gleason
>> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 8:42 PM
>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>> Cc: C320-List at catalina320.com
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] FW: Re: Single Line Reefing
>>
>> I have pictures of the block that is inside the boom on the Catalina web
>> photos: http://www.catalina320.com/gallery/album59.
>> Take a look at them. I was able to pull the block out of the end of the
>> boom without any trouble.  If you leave the cockpit end of the reef line
>> in the boom when you pull the block out, you can use it to pull the new
>> reef line through the boom.
>>
>> Dave Gleason
>> Proud Mary, #150
>>
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Walter burnett
>> <selkie2003 at yahoo.com> writes:
>>> David,
>>>
>>>   No, there is no need to do anything to the boom. If you have a
>>> shuttle block (I didn't) there should be room to fish it out through
>>> existing openings. The trick for pulling the reefing line through
>>> the boom is an electrican's snake, used for pulling wire through
>>> conduit.
>>>
>>>   Walter
>>>   Selkie #887
>>>
>>> David Cardoza <dave at avaloncon.com> wrote:
>>>   I am very late getting in this year. But I have just enough time
>>> to look at
>>> this (Reefing is a chore) before it goes in. Beside the turn by turn
>>> I
>>> assume you had to drill out the rivets holding the casting on the
>>> end of the
>>> boom or the other. Did you re-rivet or screw them in after?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com
>>> [mailto:C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Walter
>>> burnett
>>> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 1:47 AM
>>> To: C320-List
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] FW: Re: Single Line Reefing
>>>
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> The Reefing line on Selkie all runs on the port side, including the
>>> blocks
>>> in the sail reefing cringles. That lets the reefed part of the saill
>>> fall to
>>> starboard, avoiding the "crunch" problem. The line runs straight
>>> through the
>>> boom, no shuttle block.
>>>
>>> If anyone wants a turn by turn description, let me know, and I'll
>>> try to
>>> draw up a sketch.
>>>
>>> Walter.
>>> Selkie #887
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeffrey Hare wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I guess one point MFEMFE (and others) make is worth emphasizing.
>>> When
>>> Walter mentions dropping the main to a predefined point, marked on
>>> the
>>> halyard, this is a *really* important step. Dropping it too far
>>> before
>>> hauling in the reefing line makes it really easy to damage the sail,
>>> adds a
>>> huge amount of extra friction and the sail won't really reef
>>> acceptably.
>>>
>>> I used to make the mistake of easing the main halyard too far,
>>> hauling in
>>> the reefing line, then trying to tighten the main halyard to tighten
>>> up the
>>> luff of the sail.. Try not to do that. You really want to ease the
>>> main
>>> halyard until the Reefing cringle is roughly ?6"? above the boom and
>>> lock it
>>> in place. THEN start hauling in the reefing line. This keeps the
>>> reefing
>>> line and cringle from pinching the flaked sale against the boom. The
>>> luff
>>> will be automatically tightend simply by this process.
>>>
>>> My comment about adding a cheek block near the end of the boom was
>>> since the
>>> angle the reefing line pulls on the clew of my sail tends to want to
>>> over-tighten the foot but leaves the leach floppy loose, leading to
>>> the
>>> awful sail shape I mentioned. I thought some block out there could
>>> let me
>>> optimize that angle of pull. Still gotta think about that though...
>>>
>>> I really plan to do the C380 MFEMFE did.
>>>
>>> ONE QUESTION for MFEMFE: How do YOU run your reefing line?
>>>
>>> -Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: MFEMFE MFEMFEM [mailto:selkie2003 at yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:19 AM
>>> To: Allan.Field at comcast.net; C320-List
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] FW: Re: Single Line Reefing
>>>
>>> Allan,
>>>
>>> I suppose a sacrificial wear patch under the blocks is the ideal
>>> solution,
>>> but I'm into my third season and as yet see no signs of wear on the
>>> sail.
>>> Perhaps it's the blocks I used (a couple of old Garhaurer's I had on
>>> hand)
>>> which tend to stand off the sail.
>>>
>>> In my case, the friction reduction was a lot more than "marginal".
>>> More
>>> like half the effort. It goes to show, what works for you, works for
>>> you.
>>>
>>> Walter
>>> Selkie #887
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Allan Field wrote:
>>> Walter - I assume that what you are describing is that you are
>>> mounting
>>> blocks from the cringles (the new tacks when the sail is reefed). I
>>> did
>>> this also and discovered that over time, the blocks wore holes in
>>> the sail
>>> where the furled sail was rubbing against a block. The blocks are
>>> now gone
>>> and patches are now where there once were blocks. I agree that
>>> reefing was
>>> marginally more smooth but not worth the wear and tear on the sail.
>>>
>>> Allan S. Field
>>> Sea Shadow - #808
>>> Columbia, MD
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com
>>> [mailto:C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com] On Behalf Of MFEMFE
>>> MFEMFEM
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 7:06 PM
>>> To: C320-List
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] FW: Re: Single Line Reefing
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Catalina (or maybe the delivering dealer) has rigged the single line
>>> reefing a number of different ways over the years. Being a
>>> compulsive jury
>>> rigger, I've rigged Selkie at least three different ways, including
>>> with the
>>> boom shuttle block and without it.
>>>
>>> I've finally settled on the "C380 article" rig with the single
>>> blocks in
>>> the reefing cringles and I can unequivocally opine that method is
>>> the
>>> easiest reefing with the least friction of any way that I've tried.
>>> Reefing
>>> is now easy to perform under way by simply spilling the pressure
>>> from the
>>> main, dropping the halyard to a predetermined point and taking in
>>> the reef
>>> line by hand. I don't even need the winch. The friction reduction of
>>> running
>>> the line through the blocks instead of the cringles is almost
>>> unbelieveable.
>>>
>>>
>>> Walter
>>> Selkie #887
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott Thompson wrote:
>>> Dave: Yours is just like my '99 boat except that line 1 does not end
>>> at
>>> the upper cringle. Instead it goes through this cringle (port to
>>> starboard) and then back down to be tied off at a padeye on the
>>> starboard side of the mast, just below the gooseneck. This
>>> additional
>>> part doubles the purchase on the luff, while adding a small amount
>>> of
>>> friction. The padeye also keeps the luff cringle close to the mast
>>> once
>>> you pull it down, which relieves stress on the sail slides near the
>>> reefing cringle.
>>>
>>> The advantage of this system over other single line systems that
>>> only
>>> use one piece of line is that you don't have to pull as much line
>>> through the forward cringle when you reef. So it has less friction
>>> than
>>> other single line systems that really use only one piece of line.
>>> This
>>> means it doesn't require the blocks on the sail that everyone else
>>> is
>>> talking about. It would work even better if the double block inside
>>> the
>>> boom were higher quality. But it works well for me and so I haven't
>>> bothered to change it.
>>>
>>> Another advantage of this system is that you don't have as much
>>> unrigging to do if you want to remove the mainsail. Just untie the
>>> forward and aft lines separately and remove from the cringles.
>>>
>>> The system is NOT the same as what is pictured in the manual for my
>>> '99
>>> boat, which is a bizarre system that does not have the reduced
>>> friction
>>> advantages I described above.
>>>
>>> OK, now someone will say that they think the block inside the boom
>>> is to
>>> add purchase. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It doesn't. But it does reduce
>>> the
>>> overall friction in the system, IF it's rigged as described above.
>>> It's
>>> almost useless if you rig it the way the manual suggests.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave Anderer wrote:
>>>> Ok, now I'm more confused than usual. My rig - which I assumed to
>>> be
>>>> original - is significantly different than what is described in
>>> this
>>>> article.
>>>>
>>>> I've got one set of reef points, and a single-line system, but
>>> with 2
>>>> lines.
>>>>
>>>> Line one goes from the port clutches up to the gooseneck, in the
>>> boom,
>>>> around a double-pulley in the boom, back out the gooseneck, down to
>>> a
>>>> block mounted on the mast (where the vang is mounted to the mast),
>>> then
>>>> up through a cringle on the luff, and through a 2nd (higher)
>>> cringle on
>>>> the luff where it is knotted.
>>>>
>>>> Line 2 is secured at the outboard end of the boom, run inside the
>>> boom
>>>> to the double-pulley, and back out the end of the boom to a
>>> cringle on
>>>> the leech where it is knotted.
>>>>
>>>> Was that the factory-rigging on a '99? Seems awfully convoluted.
>>> The
>>>> modified 380 scheme seems significantly better.
>>>>
>>>> [Ah ha! Here is the rig I have:
>>>> http://www.catalina320.com/gallery/Alternative-Route/IMG_0226 Was
>>> that
>>>> how it came from the factory - I'm guessing not based on the
>>> comments
>>>> with this image.]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Karl Mielenhausen _/) wrote:
>>>>> Better yet, this article (and many other fine technical articles)
>>> are
>>>>> on the C380IA website....
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.catalina380.org/article_display.asp?ID=114
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A nicely organized resource for us also!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Karl Mielenhausen
>>>>>
>>>>> 2000 C320 Hull#690 "Silver Lining"
>>>>>
>>>>> New Bern, NC
>>>>>
>>>>> http://members.cox.net/mielen/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: MFEMFE MFEMFEM [mailto: selkie2003 at yahoo.com]
>>>>>
>>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 13:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Single Line Reefing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Irv,
>>> The pulley idea originally came from a Mainsheet
>>>>> article in the C380 tech section a year or two ago. If you have
>>> the
>>>>> back issues, you should be able to find it. You rig the 320
>>> reefing
>>>>> system excatly the same way. Works great.
>>> Walter
>>>
>>>>> Selkie #887
>>> Irv Grunes wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Stan,
>>> Thanks for the reply. Again yours is an elegant solution and
>>>>> the fact that
>>> everything is run through pulleys elimintes a lot of
>>>>> the friction.
>>> If one would do the same to the leech luff,
>>>>> theneverything would be throgh
>>> pulleys. Thats just a
>>>>> thought.
>>> Did you do anything to the mainsail to protect it from
>>>>> any chafe by the
>>> block working against it?
>>> When the sail is down
>>>>> and furled, that block must just sit there and not
>>> bother the sail
>>>>> cover.
>>> As you can see I am trying to visualise any and all
>>>>> problems.
>>> I realised that it will be necessary to change the
>>>>> reeving on the mast base
>>> blocks so that the existing block will be
>>>>> the last block before the line
>>> goes into the boom.
>>> Irv
>>>>> Grunes
>>> Isle of Wight #851
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original
>>>>> Message-----
>>> From:
>>>>> C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com
>>> [mailto:C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Stanley
>>> Rogacevicz
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:10
>>>>> PM
>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Single
>>>>> Line Reefing
>>>
>>> Irv,
>>> I figured my explanation might come up
>>>>> short. The block stays with/at the
>>> same level (well, maybe a couple
>>>>> inches below at most) as the reefing
>>> cringle it replaced because
>>>>> the little line that passes through the
>>> cringle/gromett is only
>>>>> long enough for attachment. When reefed the block
>>> would end up in
>>>>> the boom area but since it is being pulled down by the block
>>> at the
>>>>> mast base that's fine. My addition did involve switching a
>>>>> couple
>>> block leads around.
>>> I'm assuming as did a couple other
>>>>> posters that you already have a single
>>> line reefing standard on
>>>>> your boat --- I did *-- I just wanted to reduce
>>> the friction of the
>>>>> line passing through the reefing cringle by -
>>> replacing - it with a
>>>>> block = less friction.
>>> No... I don't remember the block I used.
>>>>> Many of my projects are simply
>>> find what looks right and make it
>>>>> work.
>>> Stan
>>>
>>>>>> igrunes at comcast.net 6/7/2006 12:48 PM
>>> Thank you Stan.
>>> I think its a very elegant way to mount that
>>>>> block.
>>> If you can remember the block you used it would be
>>>>> appreciated.
>>> Also, with the sail fully raised about where did the
>>>>> block finally rest?
>>> Did the block rest on the sail or was it at or
>>>>> just above the boom?
>>> How did you keep the block from flopping
>>>>> around or did the fact that the
>>> reefing line was through the block,
>>>>> it kept it from flopping too much.
>>> If I picture it correctly,
>>>>> there is about two feet from the sail tack to the
>>> luff reefing
>>>>> cringle, then you would only need to have that two feet to pull
>>> it
>>>>> down. I assume there was enough room below the boom to pull it
>>>>> down.
>>> Thanks for the reply.
>>>
>>> Irv Grunes
>>> Isle of Wight
>>>>> #851
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:
>>>>> C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com
>>> [mailto:C320-List-bounces at catalina320.com]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Stanley
>>> Rogacevicz
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006
>>>>> 11:42 AM
>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list]
>>>>> Single Line Reefing
>>>
>>> Irv,
>>> I did it, but it's one of the
>>>>> very few things I never posted a
>>> picture of and it's a bit hard to
>>>>> describe. I used a large SS washer
>>> (too big to pass through the
>>>>> grommet) with a small hole on one side
>>> attached to a small block on
>>>>> the other side of the sail grommet. I
>>> passed a small line (about
>>>>> 3/16) through the washer, then through the
>>> grommet, then through
>>>>> the body of the block, then back through the
>>> grommet, back through
>>>>> the washer, and then tied the two ends together
>>> with a big enough
>>>>> knot to keep it from passing through the washer. Not
>>> very elegant,
>>>>> but by not using any sharp metal objects for connections
>>> it didn't
>>>>> damage the sail and did the job.
>>> Stan
>>> (formerly) Christy
>>>>> Leigh
>>> c320 #656
>>> Wickford/Narragansett Bay RI
>>>
>>>>> igrunes at comcast.net 6/7/2006 11:17 AM >>>
>>> Guys,
>>> There was a
>>>>> thread a year or so back about single line reefing. I
>>>>> just
>>> sent
>>> the following to my boat partner.
>>> Is there any
>>>>> album that shows what people used for the luff
>>>>> pulley
>>> described
>>> below and has anyone actually done this?.
>>> I
>>>>> don't remember it right now, but there is supposed to be a way
>>>>> to
>>> make
>>> reefing a single line control by addig a pulley to the
>>>>> main luff
>>> reefing
>>> cringle. Then reeving the port side reefing
>>>>> line from the cockpit
>>> stopper to
>>> the deck mast pulley(where it
>>>>> now is), up through the new luff reefing
>>> pulley, down to a new mast
>>>>> base pulley, into the boom then to the
>>> leech
>>> cringle as we now
>>>>> have it, then to tie off at the boom. The key being
>>> a
>>> pulley on
>>>>> a strap of some kind on the luff reefing cringle. The
>>>>> main
>>> objection to this as I remember it, was all of the resistance
>>>>> that is
>>> encountered by the lines going through all of the pulleys.
>>>>> This would
>>> eliminate the need to go on deck in possible bad weather
>>>>> to reef the
>>> main.
>>> Irv Grunes
>>> Isle of Wight
>>>>> #851
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> 