[C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymmetrics.

[David J Gleason]

Scott:

I have the same configuration on Proud Mary, #150 as you do.  You make
the comment, "There is a 
 bit of a tendency for the sock to bunch up at the top."  To avoid this I
have found that if I leave 6" to 1' of halyard extending from the mast
that this gives sufficient clearance for the sock.

Dave Gleason

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:44:40 -0400 Scott Thompson <sthompson at toad.net>
writes:
> I've added a photo of the masthead of my 1999 boat (hull 653) to the 
> 
> website that might help others understand the masthead halyard 
> configuration.  See:
>  
>
http://www.catalina320.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album37&i
d=IMG_3054
> 
> There are four exit sheaves on the forward side of the mast, two 
> above 
> the headstay and two just below.  The latter are for jibs while the 
> 
> former are for spinnakers.  I have a jib halyard exiting the lower 
> port 
> sheave (and led through a separate fairlead below the sheave).  I 
> have a 
> spinnaker halyard exiting the port upper sheave.  (In the photo, the 
> 
> spinnaker halyard is wrapped aft and around the port side of the 
> mast 
> temporarily, because I was using it as my safety backup while 
> climbing 
> the mast on the main halyard.)  Because the spinnaker halyard exits 
> 
> above the headstay it can be safely jibed without fouling on the 
> headstay.  Obviously different boats might be rigged differently 
> even if 
> they have the same number of halyards.
> 
> The arrangement on my boat is not ideal in terms of chafe, but then 
> I 
> don't fly the chute that often or for long periods of time.  There 
> is a 
> bit of a tendency for the sock to bunch up at the top.  But the 
> so-called "cranes" that I've seen for the 320 do not actually put 
> the 
> turning block very far forward of the headstay, and so probably do 
> not 
> actually make much of a difference in this respect.
> 
> Scott Thompson
> "Surprise", 653
> 
> 
> Robert E. Sloat wrote:
> > Irv-The weather here on southern Lake Michigan has also been lousy 
> for
> > sailing of late, which leaves time to talk about 320s.  Almost 5 
> straight
> > days of rain and mist.  It feels like Portland, OR.
> > 
> > Below are my comments to your questions:
> > 
> > With 2 fairheads, it looks like you have a set up for 2 jib 
> halyards.
> > These fairheads keep the jib halyards away from the furling gear 
> and
> > line up the halyard at the correct angle with the top swivel of 
> the furling
> > gear.
> > 
> > I wouldn't fly a spinnaker from the halyard leading down through
> > a fairhead and below the forestay.  When you jibe the spinnaker it 
> will 
> > then
> > cross and rub on the forestay and possible cause damage or, if 
> your lucky,
> > just chafe.  Flying the spinnaker from the fairhead would also put 
> a lot of
> > stress on the fairhead which is designed to slightly alter the jib 
> halyard
> > exiting the mast and not for a 90 degree turn of the
> > halyard on a very large sail like the spinnaker.
> > 
> > If you do have a spinnaker halyard exiting the mast above the 
> forestay 
> > and then wandering down through a fairhead, you
> > climb up the mast and pull the spinnaker halyard out from the 
> fairhead
> > and it will be ready for spinnaker use.  If it's really a jib 
> halyard 
> > exiting the mast below the forestay, then
> > you need to redirect it through the correct spinnaker exit at the 
> masthead.
> > You may have to do this with the mast on the tarmac or by fishing 
> lines
> > through the mast.
> > 
> > My hull 894 has the jib halyard coming out of the port sheave 
> below the
> > forestay and through a single fairhead at the top of the mast.  
> Most 320's
> > with furling head sails have this arrangement since the jib 
> halyard 
> > exits the mast near the deck on the port side.  There is only one 
> 
> > fairhead at the
> > top of my mast which is for the jib halyard.  My spinnaker halyard 
> comes 
> > out of the mast at the port sheave above the
> > forestay and goes directly to the spinnaker when it is flying.  
> There is no
> > fairhead involved with this halyard.  The port exit doesn't make
> > any difference when flying the spinnaker on either tack.  No chafe 
> or any
> > other problems flying at lot on either tack for 4-5 seasons.
> > 
> > There are six sheaves at the top of the mast (per the Charleston 
> mast 
> > owner's manual now on the 320 site).  The Charleston mast folks 
> also spec
> > out the 320's OC1 masthead as having 2 spinnaker and 2 jib sheaves 
> at 
> > the masthead along with a main and topping lift sheave.
> > 
> > Check out the 320 website for pictures that Jeff Church took of 
> his top of
> > his mast.  He has a crane on the masthead which you don't, but the 
> pictures
> > show the exit points for the jib and spinnaker halyards very 
> clearly.  I
> > believe his 320 is less than 10 years old so the mast 
> configuration should
> > be like our 800 vintage hull nos. You can see there are 2 exits 
> for the
> > spinnaker halyard which are side-by-side and they are above the 
> > forestay. The masthead is also faired out to reduce halyard 
> chafe.
> > Below the headstay are the 2 side-by-side jib halyard exits.
> > Look in the photo gallery index for the term "mast" and Jeff's 
> pictures 
> > will
> > show you the halyard exits at the mast head.
> > 
> > I don't have the luff dimensions for my asymmetric, but the 
> sailmaker (UK)
> > did make sure it had the correct Catalina 320 specs and cut the 
> size for
> > intended use which was cruising and the ability to sail fairly 
> easily at
> > 150-160 degrees apparent and take fairly strong winds.
> > 
> > The tack line ends up in front of the bow pulpit when sailing 
> rotating 
> > the Tacker or your beads so its connection to the tack line is in 
> front 
> > of the furled genoa.  Mine goes through a Garhauer snatch block 
> attached 
> > to the OEM anchor bail and then back to whatever adjusting system 
> you 
> > use to raise or lower
> > the tack line when needed.  I don't mind wandering to the bow with 
> the
> > spinnaker flying, so I use the anchor windless as my adjusting 
> means for 
> > the
> > spinnaker tack.  The anchor rode is secured to a second cleat in 
> the anchor
> > well and I feed the spinnaker line through the opening in the 
> anchor well
> > door around the windlass and then to a cleat.  Down adjustment is
> > with the windlass and up is by hand feeding.  This arrangement 
> makes for 
> > one
> > less trip hazard on the foredeck.
> > 
> > The spinnaker sheets should be around twice your boat length 
> according the
> > sailmakers.  I use one red colored sheet for the port side and a 
> green one
> > for the starboard.  This helps with inexperienced crew since when 
> you are
> > flying the spinnaker since there is a lot of spinnaker sheet 
> laying around
> > the cockpit and the different colors help.  (With all this rope 
> laying
> > around, make sure none of it goes overboard and finds your 
> propeller.)  
> > They
> > should also be as small in diameter as can be easily handled by 
> crew and 
> > the
> > primaries.  The lighter sheets make tacking easier in light winds. 
> Some 
> > folks splice small diameter
> > line to larger line with the latter the sheet you handle in the 
> cockpit.  I
> > have 65 feet of 3/8 inch New England Stay-Set for each sheet.  You 
> could go
> > a little smaller diameter as long as the sheet would work in the 
> winches.
> > 
> > Lastly, my sailmaker supplied a regular sail bag with clips that 
> attach to
> > the lifelines to keep the thing from going overboard when 
> launching the 
> > sock.
> > 
> > I chose a sailmaker to do a turn key project, supplying me with 
> the sail,
> > bag, sock and tack arrangement all put together and delivered on a 
> good to
> > go basis.
> > 
> > You should also decide whether you want a tri-radial cut design 
> which is
> > stronger and more efficient since it stretches less at key 
> points.
> > That design is a little more expensive and may not be needed for 
> many
> > sailors.  Also, the sailmaker can recommend sailcloth weight for 
> the 
> > type of
> > sailing you do.  I got fairly light weight cloth which is 
> reinforced for
> > strength.  It's only money and you can generally find additional 
> things to
> > eat up the funds!
> > 
> > 
> > Bob Sloat
> > Savannah
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Irv Grunes" 
> <igrunes at comcast.net>
> > To: "C320-List" <c320-list at catalina320.com>
> > Cc: "Seiden, Bob" <theseidens at earthlink.net>; "Oryniak,Tom&Coryn"
> > <toryniak at patmedia.net>
> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymmetrics.
> > 
> > 
> >>
> >> Bob,
> >> Just back from the boat, and had to abort my sail week because of 
> a
> >> continuing bad weather forecast.
> >> Also you have been my inspiration for going forward with this 
> project.
> >>
> >> But I looked at the top of the mast with binoculars and found 
> the
> >> following.
> >>
> >> The jib halyard sheave is on the port side and the spimmaker 
> halyard 
> >> is on
> >> the starboard side on #851
> >>
> >> Both halyards when comming off the sheaves go down through 
> fairleads just
> >> below the sheave.
> >>
> >> That means the halyard exit from the fairlead on #851 is BELOW 
> the
> >> forestay.
> >> So Allen's pennant idea is an really good one, but 10 to 12 
> inches of
> >> pennant should be enough for halyard chafe prevention.  And it 
> appears
> >> that
> >> the raising and lowering of the Asym would best be done on the 
> starboard
> >> side to minimise any interferences.
> >>
> >> I also noticed that the down haul line for the tacker from the 
> anchor
> >> roller
> >> would come up inside the pulpit.  The pulpit seems to extend 
> beyond the
> >> anchor roller.  Is this true with your installation??  And did 
> you just
> >> snap
> >> shackle the block to to the bail above the anchor roller or 
> somehow 
> >> fasten
> >> it direcly to the roller?
> >>
> >> Your email below with the tacker location of 5 feet  when running 
> and 1.5
> >> feet when reaching is very helpful
> >>
> >> What is the luff dimension of your Asym.? That seems to be the 
> critical
> >> dimension for where the tacker position will be.
> >>
> >> We are looking at a  sail with a luff of 43.5 and I am concerned 
> that 
> >> a 12
> >> inch pennant may drop the sail tack too low for any kind of 
> reaching.
> >>
> >> BTW, I bought 10 wooden balls 1 1/2 inch diameter from McMaster 
> Carr
> >> ($5.00) and 50 1/4 unch ID delrin washers (12.00) plus $5.00 
> freight.
> >> Drilled a 1/4 inch hole in each. Strung the balls on an overall 
> line 
> >> of 30
> >> inches, with 4 of the delrin washers between each ball for 
> separation.
> >> Took
> >> it to the boat and it runs up and down the furled jib slick as a 
> whistle.
> >> Look at the neilprydesail.com website for a description and 
> sketch of
> >> their
> >> "parrell bead" tacker.(They sell it for $52. and its a real 
> bargain"
> >>
> >> Also what size and length sheets did you get for your Asym.
> >>
> >> And did the sailmaker give you a "turtle" to stow the Asym or do 
> you just
> >> use a sailbag.
> >>
> >> Planning on getting a sock from "chutescoop.com" 40 feet and will 
> wait 
> >> for
> >> their boatshow special 15% discount which will make it around 
> $220.00
> >>
> >> Thats my planned project
> >>
> >> Again, I can't thank you enoug for your encouragement in this 
> project.
> >>
> >> Irv Grunes
> >> Isle of Wight #851
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com
> >> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com]On Behalf Of Robert E. 
> Sloat
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:43 AM
> >> To: C320-List
> >> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymmetrics.
> >>
> >>
> >> Irv-If you use a pennant, make sure it is no too long.  The 
> length would
> >> depend on the cut of the asymmetric used.  If too long, then you 
> won't be
> >> able to bring the tack down enough to straighten the luff which 
> allows 
> >> you
> >> to more efficiently sail closer to the wind.  The higher the 
> tack, the
> >> farther from the wind you can sail and the lower the tack the 
> closer you
> >> can
> >> sail.
> >>
> >> On my asymmetric, for up to around 150-160 degrees apparent, the 
> tack is
> >> about 5 feet up from the anchor bail.  This allows the luff to 
> rotate to
> >> windward and get farther away from the main's blanket.  For 
> closer
> >> sailing,
> >> 60 degrees apparent with wind uder about 10 knots, the tack is 
> around 1
> >> 1/2
> >> feet up from the bail.  You can notice how the luff gets 
> straightened 
> >> when
> >> bringing the tack down and the spinnaker is more genoa-like in 
> shape.
> >>
> >> Bob Sloat
> >> Savannah 894 (2002)
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Irv Grunes" <igrunes at comcast.net>
> >> To: "C320-List" <c320-list at catalina320.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:19 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymetrics.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Allan,
> >>> The pennant idea seems to solve the halyard chafing difficulty 
> that some
> >>> have experienced.
> >>>
> >>> Was the shackle on the pennant a "swivel type" even though there 
> may 
> >>> be a
> >>> swivel at the spinnaker head already
> >>>
> >>> Did you consider a stopper ball on the halyard before the actual 
> halyard
> >>> shackle to keep it from coming in contact with the spinnaker 
> halyard
> >>> sheave
> >>> at the top of the mast.
> >>>
> >>> If ever can take a pix, send it off list to
> >>>
> >>> igrunes at comcast.net
> >>>
> >>> but your pennant description is very adequate.
> >>>
> >>> Irv Grunes
> >>> Isle of Wight #851
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com
> >>> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com]On Behalf Of
> >>> allan.field at comcast.net
> >>> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 3:15 PM
> >>> To: C320-List
> >>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymetrics.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Irv - I had the WM rigger make up an 18-inch pennant of vinyl 
> coated
> >>> wire.
> >>> One end has a swaged-on shackle that clips onto the head of the 
> sock.
> >>> The
> >>> other end has a swaged-on thimble that the spinnaker halyard 
> hooks into.
> >>> This way, any chafe at the top of the forestay or against the 
> furler 
> >>> drum
> >>> is
> >>> against this pennant instead of the rope halyard.  This seems to 
> be much
> >>> more economical than a crain.  I can take a pix and send it out 
> next
> >>> weekend
> >>> if you'd like.
> >>>
> >>> Hope this helps.
> >>>
> >>> Allan S. Field
> >>> Sea Shadow - #808
> >>> Columbia, MD
> >>>
> >>> -------------- Original message --------------
> >>> From: "Irv Grunes" <igrunes at comcast.net>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> We are still looking at Asymetrics. Looking for any comments on 
> my
> >>>> scheme
> >>>> below to eliminte the need for a crane.
> >>>>
> >>>> Found this Quantun website:
> >>>>
> >>>> 
> http://www.quantumsails.com/pdf/asymmetrical%20trim%20guide.pdf
> >>>>
> >>>> I sent this to my sailing partner:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> 
>
=========================================================================
=== 
> 
> >>
> >>>> ===================
> >>>>
> >>>> BUT the Quantum article says:
> >>>>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> What equipment do I need?
> >>>>
> >>>> . Spinnaker halyard that is above
> >>>>
> >>>> the forestay.
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> I am not sure of this BUT
> >>>>
> >>>> I think that our forestay goes to the top of the mast.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think the sheave for the spinnaker halyard is below it and 
> lets 
> >>>> assume
> >>>> that it is on the port side.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then flying an asym on the port side, the halyard would not be 
> in
> >>>> contact
> >>>> with the forestay.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then if jibeing the asym to the starboard side, the halyard 
> would have
> >>>> to
> >>>> cross over the forestay and would probably chafe.
> >>>>
> >>>> As I think about it, I think the solution would be something 
> like our
> >>>> backstay adjuster that has the ball on the line to keep the 
> thimble 
> >>>> from
> >>>> pulling up into the sheave. If a stopper ball were put on the 
> >>>> halyard, a
> >>>> knot on the halyard to hold the stopper ball, and then 8 inches 
> or 
> >>>> so of
> >>>> chafe guard were put on the halyard and then the shackle to the 
> 
> >>>> halyard.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then the sail would be hoisted that 8 inches or so lower, but 
> when
> >>>> jibed,
> >>>> the chafe guard would protect the halyard from the forestay.
> >>>>
> >>>> This would eliminate the requirement for a crane and allow us 
> to use 
> >>>> the
> >>>> spinnaker halyard safely.
> >>>>
> >>>> I will bounce this off the list to see what response we get.
> >>>>
> >>>> Irv
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Bob Seiden [mailto:theseidens at earthlink.net]
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 8:18 PM
> >>>> To: Irv Grunes
> >>>> Subject: Re: Asym's
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob
> >>>>
> >>>> Requesting quotes from a lot of the lofts. Will keep you posted 
> on the
> >>>> quotes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Saw this at the quantum website. See for setting and dousing
> >>>>
> >>>> 
> http://www.quantumsails.com/pdf/asymmetrical%20trim%20guide.pdf
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> READ IT!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> We want it for running in light air. That would seem to mean 
> the middle
> >>>> sail.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The diagrams seem to suggest that the head of the asymmetrical 
> comes
> >>>> well
> >>>> below the top of the mast. Especially with a sock, that should 
> keep the
> >>>> head of the sail well away from anything it could chafe on.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Quantum says absolutely nothing about a crane.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> me
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
>