[C320-list] New Sails, Advice Sought

[Chris Burti]

Inserted Reply again (grin).

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Ken Danko <ken320 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I inserted comments too...
>
> Chris Burti wrote:
>
>> I am a bit confused by some of the comments in your reply, and as the
>> discussion may be useful for others who are undecided (I'm not trying to
>> talk you out of your decisions ;~)). I'll stick my comments into your text
>> for simplicity.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Ken Danko <ken320 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Chris:
>>>
>>> I'm a little behind on email...Thanks for your advice. I already
>>> installed
>>> the blocks on the sail to reduce friction but the problem is that the
>>> luff
>>> is over tensioned when trying to get the right tension at the clew.  {OK,
>>>    I don't follow this part... luff tension is set by the adjusting the
>>> halyard
>>> after the reef is pulled in and if you need a reef, you usually require
>>> full
>>> tension on the clew, so I don't see how this happens }
>>>
>> I set the halyard first, I marked it so I know where it should be. Then I
> winch in the reefing line. I can then release some of the luff tension by
> easing the halyard.


OK I've seen that technique recommended, tried it and I now think it is bad
advice for the reason you state. I now tighten the topping lift, drop the
halyard about a foot past the mark (grin) pull in the reef tight, then set
the halyard tension on the winch and release the topping lift. If I've
waited too late to take in the reef (another grin) I'll head up and luff the
main while doing this. In this way,  I can set the outhaul tension on the
foot without a winch and adjust the halyard tension to depower or power up
the main.

>
>
>  Plus you have to
>>> use the winch and ideally someone else should push up on the boom      {I
>>> use
>>> the topping lift}.
>>>
>>>
>> I would have to leave the cockpit for that, either way it takes a second
> person and I single hand Grace about half the time.


My topping lift runs to the cockpit right beside the main halyard as does my
reef and on the port side, my cunningham ). I plan on adding a clutch to
bring my outhaul back to the cockpit as well.

>
>
>  Two riggers both said that they didn't recommend hooks at the goose neck.
>>> The current plan is to attach a pad eye to one side of the mast and a
>>> cleat
>>> to the other side. A  low stretch line will run from the pad eye through
>>> the
>>> reef cringle and over to the cleat. The existing reefing line will only
>>> tension the clew from the cockpit.     {This pretty much how I have run
>>> our
>>> reefing lines and the way it works for me with the OEM  jiffy reefing
>>> system...When we bought our boat the lines were run incorrectly FWIW.}
>>>
>>> I just had a local metal shop fabricate a new luff gate plate, 1/8th inch
>>> SS. It looks great but haven't had time to test it out while sailing, but
>>> the slides don't hang up when moved by hand.      {I'd expect it to work
>>> sailing if it works by hand, so you likely have a good solution}
>>>
>>> The problem with the dutchman (well there are a couple) is that even
>>> though
>>> I have the right tension in the lines, the sail still doesn't flake
>>> properly       { I'm not sure here...on Commitment, it isn't perfect in
>>> high
>>> winds, but is far better than any jack line system that I've ever used
>>> and
>>> that has been quite a few....both homemade and manufactured}.
>>>
>> The key thing here is that I almost always have high winds coming back to
> the marina (well, at least from April through October). It was 25 kts plus
> on Monday for instance.


It is usually blowing pretty good for us too, so the first big flake tends
to fall aside, but the rest come down pretty evenly and it is always a lot
easier to get nice flakes sorted out while on autopilot afterward then the
rats' nest bundle I invariably got with lazy jacks.

>
>
>  To get the
>>> right tension in the dutchman lines, the topping lift has to stay
>>> somewhat
>>> tight which means that the sail battens get caught in it.    { but only
>>> while dropping the sail and then they free themselves as it falls}
>>>
>> They get caught when tacking and when raising the sail. But they do free
> themselves when they fall.


I loosen the topping lift while sailing and they lay up against the sail. I
only tighten it when lowering the main or reefing.

>
>  Plus,
>>> the dutchman gets twisted and no amount of time or effort seems to be
>>> able
>>> to untwist it. Right now it isn't twisted but I could go to the boat
>>> tomorrow and find that over night it twisted itself...very frustrating. {
>>> I
>>> believe that has something to do with the way the core of the topping
>>> lift
>>> line is laid. It is ugly and annoying, but so far hasn't affected
>>> performance on Commitment. When I replace the topping lift, I am going to
>>> try a low stretch line with a non-laid core}
>>>
>> I have tried everything. I have even taken the whole thing down and laid
> it out carefully on the dock. It does sometimes get so twisted that the
> dutchman lines wrap two or three times around the topping lift.


Never happened to us in 6 years...I suspect something seriously wrong with
the line in your topping lift.

>
>
>  I am buying the lazy jacks
>>> this weekend, West Marine is having a sale on them. {I love a sale}
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> Chris Burti wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ken,
>>>> If you have firmly made up your mind, ignore this, but others may find
>>>> it
>>>> useful.
>>>>
>>>> I have had reefing rigged both ways on various boats we've owned and
>>>> with
>>>> a
>>>> couple of mods, I have been very happy with the OEM reefing system on
>>>> the
>>>> C-320 especially compared to the traditional system with a hook.
>>>>
>>>> I really need to be able to single hand any boat we own as the Admiral
>>>> can't
>>>> pull on strings without risk of injury to her back.
>>>> As I am not as agile as I used to be, things must work as designed or
>>>> I'll
>>>> deep six them. Biggest problem with the stock stuff we have on our
>>>> C-320's
>>>> is a dearth of cogent explanation, once you get them figured out, it
>>>> seems
>>>> like they work pretty well..
>>>>
>>>> First, the gate was missing when we bought Commitment and someone had
>>>> fabricated one out of a door latch strike plate. It had rusted, so I
>>>> ordered
>>>> a new one. I had read the grumbling about the gates and read several
>>>> suggestions on how they should be installed, so  I was very careful to
>>>> make
>>>> sure that its shape conformed to the radius of the mast and to align it
>>>> very
>>>> carefully so as avoid a snagging situation. It took a little trial and
>>>> error
>>>> and about twenty minutes time to get it right. Every time I go out now,
>>>> I
>>>> sailkote the slugs and the gate and as a result, the slugs very rarely
>>>> hang
>>>> up. When they do, I just ease the halyard a touch and they free right
>>>> up.
>>>> Once in a while, I need to go forward, but that rare occurance is
>>>> acceptable
>>>> as I almost always need to reef and unreef when we sail. Other than
>>>> after
>>>> removing the main, I have not had to adjust the gate in normal use since
>>>> I
>>>> replaced it in 2002 either.
>>>>
>>>> Second, I ran the reef lines through small blocks on the sail that are
>>>> hooked to rings on the other side of the cringle. This took most of the
>>>> friction out and really made the process "jiffy".
>>>>
>>>> I have had jack lines before and they are far better than nothing but
>>>> not
>>>> much better than OK. I like the Dutchman better, but likely would hate
>>>> it
>>>> if
>>>> I hadn't ignored the recommendations and had zippers put in my
>>>> sailcover.
>>>> By
>>>> doing this, I can adjust it when I put the sail back on and then just
>>>> leave
>>>> it set so that the lines are always taut when I tighten up the topping
>>>> lift.
>>>> If there is any slack in the lines, the sail is not controlled and the
>>>> thing
>>>> is worthless. If you dont have the zippers in the cover, you need to
>>>> putz
>>>> with the adjustment all the time and then jack lines are better.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Ken Danko <ken320 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I just ordered new sails (North) and am going to make some changes.
>>>>> This
>>>>> is
>>>>> where I could use some advice from those of you who have been through
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am going to scrap the single line reefing system in favor of hooks at
>>>>> or
>>>>> near the goosneck. Has anyone else gone this route and if so, do you
>>>>> have
>>>>> photos to show me how to rig this?
>>>>>
>>>>> One problem I have encountered in the past is with slides sticking at
>>>>> the
>>>>> luff gate. I wish that they had put the gate much lower on the mast.
>>>>> Has
>>>>> anyone figured a way to get the luff gate to fit better? It is pretty
>>>>> flimsy
>>>>> and I can't seem to get it to fit properly. Maybe I can get a new one
>>>>> fabricated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ronstan makes batten cars that don't require an external track. They
>>>>> call
>>>>> this their Ballslide Batten System. My sail maker highly recommends
>>>>> these.
>>>>> Has anyone else installed these on their 320? And if so, do they work
>>>>> well?
>>>>> I went to Simply Sail Pacific hoping that Harken would have a 75% off
>>>>> sale
>>>>> on their external track and related hardware but no such luck. The
>>>>> North
>>>>> guy
>>>>> says that the Ronstan system will achieve 75% of the same results at
>>>>> 1/6th
>>>>> the cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am going to make some other changes. I know that there are strong
>>>>> opinions pro and con in this group for the Dutchman System. I am going
>>>>> to
>>>>> ditch it in favor of lazy jacks. (I have had both and MUCH prefer lazy
>>>>> jacks.) I am also going to get a loose fitted main.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions/advice will be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ken Danko
>>>>> Grace, #802
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
Chris Burti Farmville, NC