[C320-list] Replacement Sails Dutchman A system

[Warren Updike]

Scott, I'm not familiar with the various Dutchman configs, just ours which
I'll attempt to describe: it is a two block system, there is a continuous
line on which the two Dutchman blocks are attached and the free part of the
line runs freely through each Dutchman block. At the upper end is a small
single turning sheave with a rotating eye.  At the lower end is a fiddle
block with cam cleat.  The topping lift is attached to the small sheave at
top and kept taught when not sailing. The rotating eye allows the topping
lift to twist as it needs without transferring the twist down the rest of
the lift.  The fiddle and cam at bottom allows the tension on the
monofilament lines to be eased when not striking the main even while the
topping lift is taught. 

After the sail is up and drawing, I slacken the topping lift.  Before
striking the main, I tighten the topping lift, adjust the Dutchman at the
fiddle block to tighten the monofilament, then drop it.  Once down and
flaked, I use the fiddle/cam to relieve the tension on the monofilament.  It
all works fine as long as the monofilament lines are properly tensioned and
I'm not too far off the wind when I drop the main.  Oh, and I try to be a
few degrees to port of the wind so the sail slides don't hang up on the gate
screws.

So much to remember.  So few brain cells left with which to work.

Warren & Pattie Updike
1994 C320 #62 "Warr De Mar"

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Thompson [mailto:surprise at thompson87.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:19 PM
To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement Sails Dutchman A system

My boat also came with the Garhauer solid vang and the Dutchman C system
("clothesline") with two mono-filament lines. One of the first changes I
made to the boat was replacing the springs in the vang with weaker ones
(from Garhauer) so that it wasn't so difficult to pull the boom down to
where it should be in light air. But that means that my vang is not quite as
rigid as yours.

Regarding the Dutchman, I now have the A system with 3 monofilament lines
and regret having made the change. With full battens, 2 monofilament lines
are enough, in my view, and I never had problems with the C system once I
got it adjusted.

Furthermore, I am not comfortable leaving the topping lift tensioned when I
put the boat away, since with a properly adjusted system this means that the
monofilament lines are under tension and bearing a good bit of the weight of
the mainsail. If you read the Dutchman instructions carefully you will note
that with proper adjustment. Quoting from the A system manual:  "Basically,
the flaked sail hangs off the control lines." I am concerned that this leads
to premature failure of the monofilament and (more importantly) to chafe
between the main and the monofilament when the sail is put away and covered.
I'd rather have the control lines relaxed and the sail tied securely to the
boom. As a consequence, I ease my topping lift whenever I put the boat away
so that the main rests on the boom and the monofilament is slack. As a
consequence, I don't really need the slits that were cut into my mainsail
cover, which seem to let in dirt, even though they are zippered.

To keep the boom from moving around (which is important--see below) I
support it using the main halyard secured to the end of the boom. You have
to secure it somewhere, so why not the end of the boom! The monofilament
control lines limit movement of the slack topping lift enough that it
doesn't chafe or get caught on other parts of the rigging.

Your idea of using a pennant to effectively shorten the topping lift so that
the control lines can be slack even while keeping a taught topping lift is
clever.  It occurs to me that you could get the same effect by splicing a
small hook directly into the topping lift a few feet up from the boom and
just hooking that to the end of the boom when you put the boat away, leaving
a small loop of slack topping lift. Or you could switch to the C system
which does essentially the same thing, albeit with more complex hardware.

Note on keeping the boom stationary: Shortly after I purchased my boat
(used) there was a post on this list about a boat where the vang bracket on
the mast had failed. The cause was determined to be excessive wear due to
the combination of improper vang assembly and constant minor motion of the
boom as the boat rocked at mooring or in its slip. It's important that the
stainless part of the vang fitting not be allowed to rub directly against
the cast aluminum mast bracket! There should be a stainless washer in
between. Without the washer, the vang will wear a groove into the center of
the aluminum mast bracket just from minor motion when the boat is not in
use. If this groove becomes deep enough the vang will "hang" in the groove
when you ease the main away from center line, creating enormous torque on
the bracket at the groove. 
Something has to give, and on the boat in question there was a failure of
the bracket. When I inspected my boat, I found the washer was not installed
properly, and that the groove was starting to form. I've had no problems
since putting the washer into the proper location between the lower part of
the vang and the bracket.


On 12/18/2012 11:21 AM, resloat wrote:
>
> Scott-I have a Garhauer solid vang which supports the boom so the 
> topping lift is just used for the Dutchman system.  It sounds like you 
> don't have that on your C320, so maybe this is more applicable to 
> those folks with a solid vang.
>
> I did a new UK main and Genoa last season.  The main was loose footed 
> with 2 Dutchman lines on an A system.  My UK folks recommended the A 
> system as being easier to use, but I had to deal with a mainsail cover 
> I did not want to put slits in for the monofilament lines.  The 
> original Dutchman that came with the boat new was its System C with 
> the cam cleat at the boom end to move the monofilaments lines down and 
> back when putting on the mainsail cover.
>
> The A system is much better than fooling around with the cam cleat 
> adjusting the monofilament lines.  I did not put slits in the original 
> main cover.
>
> The trick I use when putting the mainsail cover on is to loosen the 
> topping lift line at the clutch until the monofilament lines come out 
> from under the mainsail cover just like on the old C system when the 
> cover is on.  I made up an 18" length of 1/8" line with a clip at one 
> end that attaches to a small shackle on the end of the boom.  Then I 
> tie the other end of the line with a rolling hitch on to the topping 
> lift line.  Adjust the hitch to make the topping lift and 
> monofilaments taught and you are done.  This worked fine all season 
> and the topping lift never came loose from the rolling hitch.  You may 
> have to play around with different types of lines to use which get 
> traction on the Dutchman topping lift line.  Mine came with high tech 
> slippery line.
>
> When I go out I just take off the main cover, untie the rolling hitch, 
> toss the line in the port locker, tighten the topping lift to a 
> pre-marked spot on the line and raise the sail.
>
> Bob Sloat
> Savannah 894 (2002)
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Thompson" 
> <surprise at thompson87.com>
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement sails and other upgrades
>
>
>> UK Annapolis talked me into cutting slits in my mainsail cover when I 
>> made the same switch. I've regretted it ever since because the slits 
>> let dirt through the cover and onto the sail. If I were to do it 
>> again I would go back to the pulley system, or else use my main 
>> halyard as boom support when not sailing and slack the topping lift 
>> so that I could put the cover on over the Dutchman lines.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> On 12/17/2012 7:31 AM, Irving Grunes wrote:
>>> The fixed "pennant" I really meant the Dutchman "A" systen where the 
>>> dutchman line positions are fixed and it attaches to the topping lift.
>>> The topping lift  is tightened when ready to drop the sail and 
>>> loosened about 6 inches when sailing.with the loose foot on the sail 
>>> We have not cut slits in our sail cover yet and so we lower the 
>>> topping lift so that the sail cover can go on with the Dutchman 
>>> lines eased under the sail cover.
>>> Sorry for the misleading remark
>>> Irv Grunes
>>> 2001 #851
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Bruce Heyman<bruceheyman at cox.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Irv,
>>>> With a fixed pennant how do you use it as a topping lift?  Or lower 
>>>> it to replace the dutchman lines?
>>>> Bruce
>>>> Somerset
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Heyman
>>>> 949 289-8400
>>>>
>>>> Irving Grunes<igrunes at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Alan,
>>>>> We had a new sail by UK Halsey in Annapolis His recommendation was 
>>>>> to use a three line Dutchman and use a fixed Dutchman pennant 
>>>>> rather than the the pulley system.
>>>>> I can assure you that it is a pleasure because it really controls 
>>>>> the sail extremely well when dropping it.
>>>>>
>>>>> And he used just slits in the sail reinforced with webbing for the
>>>> Dutchman
>>>>> holes in the sail instead of the plastic discs.
>>>>> And we bought a full batten and loose foot as well.
>>>>> He also recommended the plastic sail track but since our boat is 
>>>>> in a partnership, we did not go for the extra $1000. the track 
>>>>> would cost, but it sure works well where we have seen it.
>>>>> Irv Grunes
>>>>> 2001 #851
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Alan 
>>>>> Goodman<goodmanalanlee at hotmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Irv - now that you mention it (it never crossed my mind) on would 
>>>>>> think
>>>> a
>>>>>> three line Dutchman would handle the sail better when flaking.  I 
>>>>>> have
>>>> seen
>>>>>> three lines on C42s but does anyone actually have three lines on 
>>>>>> a C320?
>>>>>>   Would that raise the price to $750 for installing the plastic 
>>>>>> disks ...
>>>>>>   ouch.    Alan Hull 67 Holland MI
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:02:09 -0500
>>>>>>> From: Irving Grunes<igrunes at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Replacement sails and other upgrades
>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>> <CAE+H+CJ5spsUf5uQMvdy1CPva=
>>>>>> CXAOQgO_6pk8O0aO1WorjzmQ at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>>> If going new, I suggest 3 line Dutchman and loose footed main.
>>>>>>> Irv Grunes
>>>>>>> #851
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Alan Goodman<
>>>>>> goodmanalanlee at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have the original sails (hull 67 1994) and while I considered
>>>> moving
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> a bigger boat (C400), I decided to keep the C320.  So now I am
>>>> going to
>>>>>>>> have to make the expense (is anything spent on a boat ever an
>>>>>> investment?)
>>>>>>>> for several upgrades.  I would appreciate your feedback as to 
>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>> go and
>>>>>>>> what you may have paid for a similar upgrade.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I almost pulled the trigger earlier this month while Catalina 
>>>>>>>> Direct
>>>>>> had a
>>>>>>>> 15% off discount on sails, but with only a day left before the 
>>>>>>>> sale
>>>>>> expired
>>>>>>>> I felt rushed and did not order them.  CD sells Ullman sails 
>>>>>>>> from a
>>>>>> Ventura
>>>>>>>> CA loft.  I am a Great Lakes cruiser (similar to coastal ocean
>>>>>> conditions),
>>>>>>>> so I am interested in Dacron, about 7.0 oz.  I currently have 
>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>> battens
>>>>>>>> and a bolt rope foot.  I also have the Dutchman flaking system, 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>> CD
>>>>>>>> wanted $500 extra to install the plastic disks/grommets in the 
>>>>>>>> sail.
>>>>>>   That
>>>>>>>> seemed a bit excessive to me.  Most likely I will be moving to 
>>>>>>>> a
>>>> bigger
>>>>>>>> boat in about 4 years (full retirement afloat), if that affects 
>>>>>>>> your recommendations.  Do any of the racers on the forum have 
>>>>>>>> gently used
>>>>>> Dacron
>>>>>>>> sails they might wish to part with?  Does anyone single hand a 
>>>>>>>> slab
>>>>>> flaked
>>>>>>>> main without a Dutchman or Lazy jacks?   The head sail seems to me
>>>> to
>>>>>> be an
>>>>>>>> easier choice (less decisions).  Same fabric weight as the 
>>>>>>>> main,
>>>> foam
>>>>>> luff,
>>>>>>>> leach and foot cords, etc.  I am looking for thoughts based 
>>>>>>>> upon
>>>> value
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> i.e. price to performance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also am going to have new interior cushions made for the salon.
>>>>   Any
>>>>>>>> recommendations as to foam density, foam thickness, other 
>>>>>>>> issues I
>>>> may
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> be thinking about?  My OEM settee and dinette cushions extend 
>>>>>>>> beyond
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> leading edge (i.e. overhang) of the fiberglass bench structure 
>>>>>>>> but
>>>> do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> provide any support.  The edge of these cushions simply roll 
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>> behind my
>>>>>>>> calves and are uncomfortable.  Anyone have new cushions made 
>>>>>>>> that
>>>> are
>>>>>> flush
>>>>>>>> with the leading edge of the fiberglass bench structure?  Any
>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>> about why it might be a good or bad idea?  Also, anyone have 
>>>>>>>> any
>>>> price
>>>>>>>> information as to what I should expect to pay (I'll be taking 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>>> cushions around for quotes right after the new year).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lastly, I bought a tufted topper for the aft berth cushions but
>>>> still
>>>>>>>> don't find the sleeping conditions comfortable.  So I will
>>>> definitely
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> purchasing a mattress.  Options are foam or coil spring (I also
>>>> tried a
>>>>>>>> Coleman air mattress, but it felt way too cold in the early 
>>>>>>>> spring
>>>> and
>>>>>> late
>>>>>>>> fall).  Again, any advice thoughts appreciated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That probably exhausts my boat budget for the upcoming year  ...
>>>>   air
>>>>>>>> conditioning and a below deck autopilot are in my dreams.
>>>>>>>>
>>
>