[C320-list] Battery Charger

Thu Sep 19 19:20:12 PDT 2013

Hi Chuck,

Battery selection, charging and monitoring is a common topic throughout the sailing world (from trailer sailors to big keel boats).  Power is a very important topic in today's marine world, and it always amazes me that so many sailors lack even a basic understanding of the topic. There are plenty of great resources out there, and there is always the internet.

I have read many articles on battery selection and sizing. As with any technology, what was written a few years ago may not still be correct today. Look at batteries - 2 years ago LiPO batteries would not have been considered viable for normal cruising usage, but advances in this area have now made their use viable. But, if you relied on articles written two years ago, you would not even consider them.

My point. The internet is a great resource, but it must not be taken as gospel, and all information sourced from the internet must be considered in the context and timeframe it was written in. Plus there are some idiots out there, that will argue very strongly for their particular favorite technology, referencing all sorts of data (they are probably the same people that claim men never walked on the moon :-) ).

Cheers
Simon

Simon Rock
Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

Cat375 #54 Rock The Boat
Cat375 #41 Rocket

Cat320 #1163 Rockstar (Sold)

Experience The Whitsundays
www.cya.com.au
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of katchu at chartermi.net
Sent: Friday, 20 September 2013 7:25 AM
To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
Subject: [C320-list] Battery Charger

Simon, Warren, Jeff, Bob

Thanks for all the helpful advice, Particularly your thoughts on sizing the charger to the battery AH.  I never thought of battery chargers like anchors, but it works.  I just ordered the Xantrex 40A with battery monitor and I’ll dig through the battery compartment wiring to see if I can find the fuses.  I picked the Xantrex because I like the equalization feature and the remote monitor.

Northwind #676 2000

Holland, MI 49424

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:17:39 -0400
From: Warren Updike <wupdike at hotmail.com>
To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery charger
Message-ID: <COL129-DS204958434875B50B1BA84EBE210 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

We bought the Xantrex 40A charger to replace an 18 yr old two-stage feroresonent charger and have been very happy with it. However, we did experience an early failure in that one of the cable connection studs pulled out. Xantrex support was helpful and replaced the unit.  Unfortunately, out slip mate also had an early electronic problem and the unit was replaced.  We got a super deal from Hodges Marine on the charger with remote display so I didn't have to pay nearly twice the price for a competitive model.

The best part is that with the old charger I was constantly checking and adding water and batteries were never fully charged - a constant worry.  With the Xantrex, I hardly ever add water, the batteries will charge fully, and show no signs of wearing down.  I'm sure the same result would be achieved with most 3-stage, digital chargers.  Before, I was considering an expensive battery watering system.  Now, don't need it.  No worries.  

Here is a point if you are changing chargers and upping output say from 20A to 40A, and you have fuses in the charge cable to the batteries, be sure to replace the fuses with a larger appropriate fuse or they will blow.

I also recommend a battery monitor.  They are like a fuel gage for your batteries in that they measure all current in and out and display a percent full.  

Warren & Pattie Updike
1994 C320 #62 "Warr De Mar"

-----------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:19:08 -0400
From: "Jeff Hare" <catalina at thehares.com>
To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery Charger
Message-ID: <003501ceb553$f886f430$e994dc90$@thehares.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Since the boat has ~350AH worth of batteries, the 40A is a much better charger size.  During charge operations it'll much spend less time being "maxed out" which is a little harder on the internal components.  The fusing is probably just fine since the inline fuses would be set up for protecting against a major short, not for protecting the charger.  The wires are quite heavy and can handle the large charge currents with very little voltage drop (which is the goal in charging circuits).

With that said, we keep our boat on the dock plugged in all the time also, so really it spends most of its time in float but occasionally switching to absorption modes since we have the fridge running most of the time. 

The drawback of Xantrex *in my opinion* is that they have poor DC power cable connectors.  While most chargers like ProMariner, Charles, etc. use studs with nuts/washers that take ring terminals for a secure connection,   Xantrex uses molex (I think) connectors that you stick bare wire in and tighten a screw.   So, you'll have to either use a terminal block or cut off the factory ring terminals (bad idea!).  It used to be that the diameter of wire they accept was smaller than the size that Catalina uses for battery charging cables so you'd have to trim off strands down to about an 8AWG size before it would fit.  Even if they finally increased the size of these connectors, it's a fragile connection living in storage locker where stuff can bounce around or slide up to the charger.  I'd prefer solid connections that can't be pulled out.  But this is a commentary on the installation and suitability, not the quality of the charging product which from what I can tell is on par with
  the rest of the field.  

The best way to install the xantrex is to leave the ring terminals on and use a covered terminal block to transition from ring terminals to non-terminated wires that actually plug into the charger.  Then when this charger dies and you get a charger that has proper terminals again, you won't need to install heavy lug ring terminals that you previously cut off.  :)

So... Go with a 40A charger.  If it's a 2 battery charger, then it's really 20A per leg.  If it's a 3 battery charger then it's about 13A/battery.  The stock battery was a ProMariner flyback 30 or something that was really 10A/leg X 3.

Cheers!
-Jeff

Thanks Jeff

I like the control panel and the temperature compensation on the Xantrex, but the ugly reviews on the WM site raised a red flag, so thought that I might run it by the group.  This group has been very positive on Xantrex, so I was surprised by the reviews.  In any case, I?m pulling my boat this week, so I have some time to think this over.

Chuck Mueller

Northwind #676

Holland, MI
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 11:57:41 -0400
From: "Jeff Hare" <catalina at thehares.com>
To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery charger
Message-ID: <01a001ceb3be$a4cefdb0$ee6cf910$@thehares.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Out of curiosity which Charles charger do you have?  How many amps?

The old flyback promariners seemed to not last too long.  Ours lasted 7 years.  Many owners replaced that with a Xantrex charger (accepting the crappy connectors on the Xantrex) and were all very happy... until those also started showing the same failures after years in service.  We replaced our ProMariner with a Charles 40 and while it's going on 6 years now I expect to have to replace it within a few years.

Others have used IOTA and Freedom, etc.  My guess is that if you had a way of really looking at the statistics, there's no good answer.  By the time you figure out which charger last the longest, you can't actually get that charger any more.  While you can decide which chargers to avoid based on early failures, I doubt you can do any better than that.

So, when I need to replace mine, I'm going to see if the current breed of Charles chargers is getting a bad rap or not.  If not, I'll get a new one (knowing that it's not at all the same internal design or build as the one I'm replacing).  If ProMariner isn't getting a bad rap, I might look at those also.  It'll come down to warranty, reputation on the actual version of the charger I'm buying.

My $.02

Cheers!
-Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of katchu at chartermi.net
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 2:55 PM
To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
Subject: [C320-list] Battery charger

My Charles battery charger appears to have died again.  It was on the boat when I bought it seven years ago, and I had Charles recondition it for $85 about three years ago when it died.  I recall that many of you switched to Xantrex and were really happy.  But the reviews in the WM website are very bad with multiple early failures.  Has anyone had any recent experience, good or bad?

Thanks

Chuck Mueller

Northwind #676

Holland, MI

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:11:05 -0500
From: "resloat" <resloat at comcast.net>
To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery Charger
Message-ID: <9F4D910167C94E64BCB69C1FB0E5E60C at SloatLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";  reply-type=original

Jeff-Agree on all you said.  I replaced 2 Pro Mariners over 6 years from a new C320 Hull 894 (2002) and installed a Xantrex IC 20 in 2008.  The terminal issue is the only drawback I found and chose to not cut off the the factory rings terminals.  I trimmed the rings and bent them to fit in the screw in terminals on the Xantrex.  If I need to go back, what is left of the ring can be easily removed from the heavy wire and new ones installed with some effort.  I could not find conversion blocks that looked sturdy enough to use and have extra crimp on rings if needed.

So far after 5 years no problems with the Xantrex which I don't think you can buy anymore as newer models must have come along.  I am at a slip with power and keep the refrigerator on 24/7 and the Xantrex has performed flawlessly.  I like the equalization feature and the ability to adjust charger settings for temperature variations where the batteries are located and the fact it will work with up to three flooded, gel or AGM batteries.  I think they all have to be the same type.  Also, you can install a battery temperature sensor and a remote panel to monitor the charging progress.

Pro Mariner now has some solid state controlled chargers which are likely an improvement over their ones circa 2002.

Bob Sloat
Savannah 894 (2002)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Hare" <catalina at thehares.com>
To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery Charger

Since the boat has ~350AH worth of batteries, the 40A is a much better 
charger size.  During charge operations it'll much spend less time being 
"maxed out" which is a little harder on the internal components.  The fusing 
is probably just fine since the inline fuses would be set up for protecting 
against a major short, not for protecting the charger.  The wires are quite 
heavy and can handle the large charge currents with very little voltage drop 
(which is the goal in charging circuits).

With that said, we keep our boat on the dock plugged in all the time also, 
so really it spends most of its time in float but occasionally switching to 
absorption modes since we have the fridge running most of the time.

The drawback of Xantrex *in my opinion* is that they have poor DC power 
cable connectors.  While most chargers like ProMariner, Charles, etc. use 
studs with nuts/washers that take ring terminals for a secure connection, 
Xantrex uses molex (I think) connectors that you stick bare wire in and 
tighten a screw.   So, you'll have to either use a terminal block or cut off 
the factory ring terminals (bad idea!).  It used to be that the diameter of 
wire they accept was smaller than the size that Catalina uses for battery 
charging cables so you'd have to trim off strands down to about an 8AWG size 
before it would fit.  Even if they finally increased the size of these 
connectors, it's a fragile connection living in storage locker where stuff 
can bounce around or slide up to the charger.  I'd prefer solid connections 
that can't be pulled out.  But this is a commentary on the installation and 
suitability, not the quality of the charging product which from what I can 
tell is on par with the rest of the field.

The best way to install the xantrex is to leave the ring terminals on and 
use a covered terminal block to transition from ring terminals to 
non-terminated wires that actually plug into the charger.  Then when this 
charger dies and you get a charger that has proper terminals again, you 
won't need to install heavy lug ring terminals that you previously cut off. 
:)

So... Go with a 40A charger.  If it's a 2 battery charger, then it's really 
20A per leg.  If it's a 3 battery charger then it's about 13A/battery.  The 
stock battery was a ProMariner flyback 30 or something that was really 
10A/leg X 3.

Cheers!
-Jeff

Thanks Jeff:

My Charles charger is a 20 amp unit.  I don?t think that I want the 40 amp, 
as I am at a dock and the boat is plugged in almost all the time.  I think 
that a 40A might require new fusing too, but I can?t find any fusing in the 
existing battery circuit.  This failure was just like the last one in that 
there was suddenly no DC power to either bank.  I checked the internal DC 
fuse, and it is OK.  The internal AC fuse does not appear to be user 
replaceable

I like the control panel and the temperature compensation on the Xantrex, 
but the ugly reviews on the WM site raised a red flag, so thought that I 
might run it by the group.  This group has been very positive on Xantrex, so 
I was surprised by the reviews.  In any case, I?m pulling my boat this week, 
so I have some time to think this over.

Chuck Mueller

Northwind #676

Holland, MI
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 11:57:41 -0400
From: "Jeff Hare" <catalina at thehares.com>
To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery charger
Message-ID: <01a001ceb3be$a4cefdb0$ee6cf910$@thehares.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Out of curiosity which Charles charger do you have?  How many amps?

The old flyback promariners seemed to not last too long.  Ours lasted 7 
years.  Many owners replaced that with a Xantrex charger (accepting the 
crappy connectors on the Xantrex) and were all very happy... until those 
also started showing the same failures after years in service.  We replaced 
our ProMariner with a Charles 40 and while it's going on 6 years now I 
expect to have to replace it within a few years.

Others have used IOTA and Freedom, etc.  My guess is that if you had a way 
of really looking at the statistics, there's no good answer.  By the time 
you figure out which charger last the longest, you can't actually get that 
charger any more.  While you can decide which chargers to avoid based on 
early failures, I doubt you can do any better than that.

So, when I need to replace mine, I'm going to see if the current breed of 
Charles chargers is getting a bad rap or not.  If not, I'll get a new one 
(knowing that it's not at all the same internal design or build as the one 
I'm replacing).  If ProMariner isn't getting a bad rap, I might look at 
those also.  It'll come down to warranty, reputation on the actual version 
of the charger I'm buying.

My $.02

Cheers!
-Jeff