[C320-list] Subject change: Battery change. Almost there

[jackbrennan]

Hi Scott:
I can solve one of your smaller problems.
I bought a USB charger/voltmeter for about $15 on Amazon.
I used a small hole saw to drill into the center of my Yanmar instrument pod, then connected the positive wire to the battery side of the ignition switch and the negative to the instrument ground.
If you don't do that it will only be on when the diesel is.
Also, if you have AGMs, it's problematic to have a regular battery in your charging system due to different voltage needs.
Your starting battery would have to be isolated somehow. I believe you can do it, but it would take some research.
Maybe you could combine the AGMs as house, then use something like an echo charger for the starting battery.
Jack BrennanSonas, 1998 Catalina 32Tierra Verde, FlDolphin Cruising Club of Tampa Bay

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Scott Westwood<scottwestwood at bellsouth.net> wrote:   Much appreciated to all that respond.
Given the tasks at hand I am holding off with starter battery for now.  If/when we do more long term cruising I will add that.
Before sailing season (April/May) I need to:
1. Replace Batteries w AGMs (Shopping- Almost ready to buy those)2. Install Solar panels w/controllers and monitor panel ( All ordered)3. install external/better MC-614 Regulator on Alternator (Still have to figure out how to bypass Hitachi internal or just replace alternator too??  Time permitting???)  Would like to replace 55amp Alt with Balmar +/-100amp but the price is so dang high...4. Install Rail strut support for new Dinghy Davits (Installed Davits in Nov)5. Replace Stern running light with new LED one and move to davits (Dinghy will block old one while hanging) (Ordered)
Would like to also install 12v and USB outlet on pedestal someplace.
That's not counting normal Maint tasks. 
Wish boat wasn't 2 1/2 hours away.



Thanks,




Scott Westwood scottwestwood at bellsouth.net H (919)-362-8538    C (919)-618-7185
 

    On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 11:16:00 AM EST, Warren Updike <wupdike at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Scott, it is not necessary to have a separate starting battery. Starting, while a large load, is for such a short time that the effect on the battery is small. 
Likewise, combining both 4D batteries is better than not, as the result is the load is applied to approx.. 400AH vs 200AH. Thus the draw-down over the period between rechargings is less: less stress on the bank, less recharge time, longer life. 
Still, you should consider how you would start the engine if the house bank were not available. Such a start battery need only be an automotive type. The question is whether to wire it into the system, or leave it disconnected until needed. Also, a portable jumper battery could be an option. 
If not connected, how to keep the spare starting battery charged? If your charger supports multiple banks, simply connect the spare starting battery to the charger and it will be there when you need it. Otherwise, you need too make some provision too keep it charged like a relay type device. 
Even if wired into your system, there can be an issue if the house bank goes South. It might not be advisable to just throw the "Combine" switch, especially if the house bank is very low because there is the issue of the low house bank placing a larger load on the starting battery. In that case, The dead house bank should be disconnected from the system before connecting the house bank.

This is from what I've learned over the years. As with most advice, there are opposing opinions. So, I offer the above as matters to consider. Seek other advice before deciding what works best for you. Not all people are wired the same.

Warren & Pattie Updike
C320 1994 #62 “Warr de Mar”
Middle River, MD (Chesapeake Bay)



-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Westwood <scottwestwood at bellsouth.net> 
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2018 11:21 AM
To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
Subject: [C320-list] Subject change: Battery change. Almost there but....

I have decided to go AGM. Period.  I know I have gone back and forth on this but starting to line up ordering things.  Time to commit.
Questions (some may have already been answered but can't find the email trail.....):
1. If I go with AGM deep cycle MUST I go with a separate Start Battery?  Can 4D AGMs (Probably Lifeline GPL-4DL) support starting the engine without damaging them?  Damaging them is the last thing I want to do.        a. If the answer is... It is OK (just not preferred) then I will likely NOT do the start battery just yet. and use each Batt on it's own Pos like they were.
        
2. If the answer is that I "have to/should" have a start battery to do no damage....  I was thinking of doing what I heard somebody else do (Brian on Serenity) and use the existing Batt switch for maybe Position 1 for start and position 2 for House but....            a. What is the start procedure?  Turn on Pos 1, Start Engine, then turn to Pos 2 (Making sure to NOT go past OFF)?  That simple?  Allowing all Nav equipment to be on for engine start or turn off NAV and Radio before starting engine for the smaller battery??

3. Have  not done the math yet but... If you add 2 batteries to the existing wiring (for Pos 2), will you have to run new/larger wire to support 2 batteries Vs. 1?  I think the charge and discharge should not be more than was originally supported, no matter the added "hour capacity", but just trying to cover all the bases.  Short of dead shorts... but that is what fuses are for??

Am I being too cautious?  Boy I know more about batteries than I ever thought I would (and still learning)

Thanks,




Scott Westwood scottwestwood at bellsouth.net H (919)-362-8538    C (919)-618-7185
 

    On Monday, October 29, 2018, 5:27:14 PM EDT, Jon Vez <jonvez at comcast.net> wrote:  
 
 If you do choose to go the AGM route, heed Jeff’s advice and do invest in true deep cycle batteries. Dual purpose is a false economy—especially when it comes to AGM. 

West Marine batteries are rebranded West Penn dual purpose batteries. I don’t know of any WM batteries that are true deep cycle. Check weight on specs which is a true indicator of plate thickness. Lifeline, Northstar, Rolls are the only true DC I know of in the AGM space (Fireflies are a different animal).

If you are upgrading your charger, a temp sensor and the ability to program the charging regimen to the manufacturer recommendations is very important. Lifeline in particular wants a very specific absorption/float setting.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 29, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
> 
> Scott,
> 
> We have old lifeline AGMs from 2006 or so.  They still recharge really quickly with a high output alternator or powerful shore power charger and we don't worry about 3-5 days on the hook.  Those in cold climates who winterize can appreciate that you can charge AGMs in the fall and not touch them for 6 months and come back to fully charged batteries with no risk of freezing.
> 
> We don't pay excessive attention to our power use.  We'll typically run the engine for 15 or 20 min in the morning to get hot water for dishes and stuff but that's it.  The high output alternator puts a little back during that time.  When we start seeing the batteries accepting over 100A from the alternator for any length of time, we'll run the engine a tad longer till it drops to the 75A range, knowing that a few hours of motor sailing will have them fully recharged at the end of the trip.
> 
> I wouldn't pay all that much attention to WM vs Lifeline AGMs really 
> as long as both are deep cycle and not dual purpose.  Don't use dual 
> purpose starting/deep cycle for anything.  They suck pretty bad at 
> both those jobs in our application. :)
> 
> -Jeff Hare
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of 
> Scott Westwood
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 12:32 PM
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Looking to setup temporary 12v supply while batteries are removed?
> 
> Thanks for all your thoughts.
> Yes plan by spring is to 1. Replace 2 LAs with 2 AGM batteries (Deciding West Marine @400+/- ea or Lifeline @ 700+/- ea.  We can get discount on WM.  I would prefer Lifeline.  They sound like more robust batteries (Only AGM that can take Equalize- if needed) but Lifeline's would cost twice as much as WM/Exide so not sure worth extra cost)2. External Regulator from Alternator3. Solar panel(s) and Controllers to keep Batteries topped4. Battery monitor shunt version (Comes with Solar Controllers)4. Start Battery (Likely but not firm yet).5. All possible temp sensors on all equipment/batteries6. LED light replacement where possible (Especially Anchor but also Running and some Cabin) 7. down the road is portable generator for longer anchorages.
> Goal here is to be able to anchor for  at least 2-3+ days without going to shore except for Water and fuel.  We don't use much power.  We don't have music going etc...  Big use for us if Refrig and anchor light and charging phones/PCs.
> Lots of options/ideas.
> Thanks,
> Scott Westwood scottwestwood at bellsouth.net H (919)-362-8538    C 
> (919)-618-7185
> 
>      From: John morrison <sail-ability at sympatico.ca>
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Looking to setup temporary 12v supply while batteries are removed?
> 
> If you are insisting on the expensive AGM batteries suggest you sus out our website and look at stuff there which gives the pros and cons of AGM, if you haven’t already done so. There has been a lot written on the subject.
> JEM
> 1999#574
> 
>> On Oct 29, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Joe Luciano <jnluciano at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Also, until you fix the problem with the current permanent battery charger in the boat, you will suffer early battery death on any new batteries you’ve purchased in the spring.  Your investment should include a reliable boat shore power battery charger along with new batteries.  With the need to invest in both, LA batteries are the more economical choice.  I just replaced mine after 12 years and have the Charles battery charger that Catalina used in boats of my vintage.
>> 
>> Joe Luciano
>> Second Wind
>> 2005 Catalina 320
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 29, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Scott,
>>> 
>>> Don't do the battery charger thing.  It doesn't work like you're 
>>> thinking it works.
>>> 
>>> Chargers are not usually fixed voltage devices.  They vary their supply voltage in order to hit a target 13.8v across a connected battery and monitor the current flow to determine state of charge.  Say the battery is at 12.5v.  A car battery charger hooked to that battery will increase it's supply voltage (across the battery clamps) in order to induce enough current flow so that the battery now reads 13.8v across its terminals.  It'll continue to vary the actually voltage needed to induce the amount of current needed to keep it at 13.8 volts until the battery itself is near 13.8v (which can be calculated by the battery drawing very low amount of current at this point).  This is when a car battery is considered charged. (essentially)  I'm not being super precise, here, just conveying the concept.
>>> 
>>> When there's no battery hooked to a charger, battery chargers won't know what voltage to produce on the output since even if it went to 200v, there wouldn't be any current draw. So it will simply think it's not hooked to a battery.  Suddenly putting a non-battery load on it will provide a completely unregulated voltage on the load and the current will be all over the map.  It probably just won't work, or could damage the load depending on your car charger.
>>> 
>>> A 12v supply, like used for Ham radio gear, etc. is designed to produce and hold a fixed REGULATED voltage and supply whatever current the load needs up to the rating of the power supply.  Totally different process.  When you hook a charger to a battery, the battery "regulates" or smooths out the (usually) modified sine wave voltage the load will see. 
>>> 
>>> So, I wouldn't don't it on my boat.  😊  Buy an inexpensive AGM Car or Lawn tractor battery, hook up a trickle charger and your bilge pump.  Or use your starting battery for this with a trickle charger/maintainer plugged in.
>>> 
>>> My $.02
>>> -Jeff Hare
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf 
>>> Of Scott Westwood
>>> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 7:22 AM
>>> To: Catalina List <c320-list at catalina320.com>
>>> Subject: [C320-list] Looking to setup temporary 12v supply while batteries are removed?
>>> 
>>> I want to remove my batteries and provide a "temporary" 12v supply only to run the bilge pump over the winter.
>>> My batteries are dying. Plans are in the works to replace both LA with AGMs before spring.
>>> Concern: Shore power charger cooking the last dying battery and releasing caustic fumes and possible fire?  The charger dried up (boiled) the other/second battery and the fumes were real bad.
>>> I want to remove the last battery and shut off the battery charger and run a 12v power supply if/when the bilge pump would need to run.  Right now the bilge is dry and no water leaking in but you never know.
>>> I have one of those rolling battery charger/starter for cars and I can maybe turn it on "always on" and leave it hooked up in place of the batteries???  As long as I have shore power then the boat would have 12v (if needed).  I am not near the boat now but it is a Jabsco pump in the port cabin seat near chart table. Can't be more than 5-8 amps??
>>> High end related second question:  Is there a permanent  battery 
>>> charger that can also provide emergency crank/starting current when 
>>> connected to shore power - if batteries are dead?  I know you can 
>>> have a dedicated start battery but it seems silly to not have the 
>>> capacity to use shore power as an emergency start power.  Asking too 
>>> much?  Overkill? Thanks, Scott Westwood scottwestwood at bellsouth.net 
>>> H
>>> (919)-362-8538    C (919)-618-7185
>>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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