[C320-list] Mysterious water
Warren Updike
wupdike at hotmail.com
Mon Mar 19 06:46:29 PDT 2018
Assuming that you have not noticed such inside water after a heavy rain (not that you've seen any heavy rain in Cape Coral,) it must be related to the over-fill of the water tank. Either, as John M. suggests, one of the two connections of the fill hose have failed, or the inspection port on the tank leaks. Or, perhaps, also check the vent hose from the tank to the vent. Both connections are on the top of the tank. You'll have to trace the path of the hose to find the other ends.
I've found it necessary to wrap the inspection port cap on both tanks with heavy-duty plumber's tape (hardware store,) and make sure the cap is securely installed. For this task, I made a wooden wrench for the purpose (use any suitable tool.)
Your hull #948, is what is called the "deep bilge." Our hull #62 is the older "shallow bilge" design, the grid pan is entirely different, so I can't comment on how the water got to where you found it. I can tell you that we have found water from tanks in the most inaccessible places from different leaks necessitating removing the cabin sole to deal with it. All fixed now.
Please let us know how it turns out.
Sorry we missed seeing you in CC this year.
Warren and Pattie Updike
1994 C320 "Warr de Mar" #62
Middle River, Chesapeake Bay
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane [mailto:dianeflr at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 7:50 AM
To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mysterious water
How do I get to it?
Captain Diane Fowler, Sellstate Priority Realty Network.
Www.CapeCoralHomes.com
239-850-4935
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 19, 2018, at 7:26 AM, John morrison <sail-ability at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> Sounds like your fill hose has come disconnected or otherwise failed. This is on the starboard side of the boat.
> Cheers
> JohnM
> 1999#574
>> On Mar 19, 2018, at 7:20 AM, Diane <dianeflr at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> When I filled my water tank in the bow, the hose ran about three minutes after it was filled . Overflowed down deck
>>
>> Afterwards, I found Water
>>
>> 1. in aft cabin seat storage nook,
>>
>> 2. aft cabin “bin”in stern,
>>
>> 3. and Water trickled down the starboard side IN bilge for hours!
>>
>> Used minimal water for 2 days ( just bow tank) and ran out of water!!
>>
>> Removed boards in v berth- don’t see any standing water- but smells musty and wood swollen- like moisture was high.
>>
>> Any ideas????
>>
>> Catalina plumbing layout shows pipes running from tank along PORT side! So, how did I get Water along starboard???
>>
>> Captain Diane
>> S/V Windy City
>> Cape Coral , FL
>>
>> Captain Diane Fowler, Sellstate Priority Realty Network.
>> Www.CapeCoralHomes.com
>> 239-850-4935
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 6:38 PM, John morrison <sail-ability at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you’re going with an electric toilet, might as well go all the way and get electric winches, ‘cause if you can’t stroke the poop pump, not likely able to crank the jib drum……just saying’.
>>> Cheers
>>> JohnM
>>> 1999#574
>>>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 3:13 PM, Ken Geiger <kendgb at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just got back from a charter on a catamaran in Thailand, Andaman Sea. The 2 year old cat had electric toilets. One had recurring problems in discharging the waste. The other thing I noticed is they probably moved a lot more water than what I would want my holding tank to deal with. Northern Dream is a fresh water boat where managing the holding tank pump out is always a part of our cruise plan. So electric is not for us.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: John Meyers <jcmeyers7 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: C320-List <C320-List at catalina320.com>
>>>> Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2018 2:08 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] ENGINE SPACE VENTING
>>>>
>>>> Just in case some of you may think electric heads are a joke......
>>>>
>>>> www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1&id=2391500
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Donald Lawson <dnclaws at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Graeme
>>>>> Best answer is to ask Catalina and get the final answer.
>>>>> I had some refrig work done and the fuel tank cleaned this winter. Mechs
>>>>> crushed dryer hose, it was fine before that. Tried to fix it but it
>>>>> probably needs to be replaced.
>>>>> Also I really am going to install an electric head.
>>>>> Don
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 3:29 AM, Graeme Clark wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nothing in the data you have kindly transcribed for us states that the
>>>>> blower is specifically there to provide combustion air
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It clearly states that combustion air “may” be supplied by natural
>>>>> ventilation and that a blower may be provided simply to remove odours or
>>>>> improve working conditions. In other words extra ventilation is only needed
>>>>> if natural ventilation is insufficient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If natural ventilation on the 320 was insufficient and it was necessary
>>>>> to have the blower running whenever the engine was running then (a) it
>>>>> would state that in the C320 manual and (b) it would probably be hotwired
>>>>> to the ignition key so it couldn’t be left off by accident
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just saying!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from mobile: please excuse typos etc.!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 17 Mar 2018, at 23:05, John Frost <john at frostnet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WOW! Actual facts that we can use. Great research job Don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John C. Frost
>>>>>>> President
>>>>>>> Safety Engineering Services, Inc.
>>>>>>> 2627 Trailway Rd.
>>>>>>> Huntsville, AL 35801
>>>>>>> (256) 650-0335
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: C320-list [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Donald Lawson
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 5:14 PM
>>>>>>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] ENGINE SPACE VENTING
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff & Graeme
>>>>>>> Rather than have a debate, I thought I would give all the data I could
>>>>>>> collect and let everyone make their own decision as to use/removal of
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> blower Some of you will have to convert to english/metric where I did
>>>>> not.
>>>>>>> Also, this is for a 3YM30 Yanmar only but I expect it applies somewhat
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> all diesels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This 66 cu in (1.115 l) engine needs air at about 50 cu ft/min at 3000
>>>>> rpm..
>>>>>>> Assumes a .9 volumetric efficiency for this engine (under 1000 hours).
>>>>>>> Older diesels are above or near .8.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Per the Yanmar Installation Manual (not owners manual): 1) Maximum
>>>>> engine
>>>>>>> room Temp shall be 140 deg F (60 C) and 2) Minimum Engine Room
>>>>> Ventilation
>>>>>>> Fresh Air Exchange
>>>>>>> (Ventilator Capacity) shall be 194 cu ft/min (5.5 cu meters/min).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Per Yanmar Installation Manual horsepower decreases from 30 to 29, at
>>>>> rated
>>>>>>> rpm, when temp at the fuel pump increases from 25 C to 40 C. Expect
>>>>> lower
>>>>>>> hp at 60C.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rule and Shurflo ventilators have about 250 Cu ft/min capacity with a
>>>>> 4in
>>>>>>> hose. I think I have a 4in dryer hose crushed to 2 in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ABYC Diesel Ventilation Standard H-32, from 1987, states:
>>>>>>> H-32.4.
>>>>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>>>> These recommended practices and engineering standards establish
>>>>> requirements
>>>>>>> for ventilation of boats using diesel fuel.
>>>>>>> SCOPE
>>>>>>> These recommended practices and engineering standards apply to boats
>>>>> using
>>>>>>> diesel fuel only for electrical generation, mechanical power and
>>>>> propulsion.
>>>>>>> NOTE: Ventilation requirements for boats using gasoline as fuel are
>>>>>>> contained in ABYC H-2, "Ventilation ofBoats Using Gasoline".
>>>>>>> DEFINITION
>>>>>>> Ventilation - The changing of air within a compartment by natural or
>>>>>>> mechanical means. Ventilation may be effected by dilution of
>>>>> contaminated
>>>>>>> air, by introduction of fresh air, or by local exhaust of contaminated
>>>>> air.
>>>>>>> REQUIREMENTS -IN GENERAL
>>>>>>> a Ventilation Principle - Ventilation cannot be relied upon to remove
>>>>> all
>>>>>>> vapors that are pos- sible from the presence of liquid fuel resulting
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> fuel system failures or fuel spillage. (See ABYC H-33, "Diesel Fuel
>>>>>>> Systems") b Storage Batteries - Compartments containing storage
>>>>> batteries
>>>>>>> shall be vented to provide for the escape of hydrogen in accordance with
>>>>>>> ABYC E-lO, "Location and Installation of Storage Batteries".
>>>>>>> c Diesel Fuel Vapors - Due to the characteristics of diesel fuel and the
>>>>>>> closed nature of the diesel engine fuel system, neither mechanical nor
>>>>>>> natural ventilation, as prescribed for gasoline powered vessels, is
>>>>>>> necessary to remove diesel fuel vapors. (See ABYC H-2, "Ven- tilation of
>>>>>>> Boats Using Gasoline") d Removal of Fixed Gaseolls Fire Extinguishing
>>>>> System
>>>>>>> Discharge - Ventilation means shall be provided to remove the discharge
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> ftxed gaseous ftre extinguishing systems.
>>>>>>> e Combustion Air - Ventilating provisions and openings to the machinery
>>>>>>> space provided for supplying combustion air shall accomodate the air
>>>>>>> requirements required by the engine manufacturer(s) for each propulsion
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> auxiliary engine in that space. These openings may also function as
>>>>> means of
>>>>>>> providing natural ventilation.
>>>>>>> f Additional Uses of Ventilation - Power or natural ventilation is not
>>>>>>> required on a diesel boat, but may be used to control compartment
>>>>>>> temperature. power ventilation may also be used in the machinery space
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> odor control and personnel comfort while servicing equipment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note c and e above. Could not find the current standard without paying
>>>>>>> money, expect it to be unchanged?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on the above the blower is not there to cool the engine but does
>>>>>>> exchange air for engine room cooling and combustion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Therefore I will:
>>>>>>> Continue to run my blower during engine operation per Yanmar's
>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>>> Change the dryer hose to something more substantial to keep it from
>>>>> being
>>>>>>> crushed when I work in the aft areas.
>>>>>>> Install an electric head
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Happy Boating
>>>>>>> Don Lawson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 15, 2018, at 2:09 PM, Jeff Hare wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Per what Graeme said, that's how ours was configured as well from the
>>>>>>> factory. For a bilge blower to really serve its intended purpose, it
>>>>> would
>>>>>>> have to suck air in and vent it outside, as it's supposed to remove
>>>>> residual
>>>>>>> flammable "gasoline" fumes prior to starting the engine to prevent
>>>>> awesome
>>>>>>> dockside entertainment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, if you really run the blower when you run the engine, that probably
>>>>>>> only serves to validate the point that the engine gets what it needs
>>>>> just
>>>>>>> fine through many places like the front and aft engine cover cracks,
>>>>> all the
>>>>>>> places where hoses and bilge drain holes exist in addition to the pair
>>>>> of 4"
>>>>>>> holes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, generally no need to sweat this. To my knowledge I've never heard
>>>>>>>> of a 320 having overheating or efficiency issues due to the way the it
>>>>>>>> was installed by the factory. On the bonus side, without the bilge
>>>>>>>> blower hoses clogging up the transom vent holes, your fridge might run
>>>>>>>> a little cooler. :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's really nothing stopping you from drilling another 3" or 4" vent
>>>>>>> hole near the existing ones to increase air flow except that you'd be
>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> pressed to show made any measurable difference.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>> -Jeff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Graeme Clark
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 5:20 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Catalina list <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] ENGINE SPACE VENTING
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be being stupid, but cant see how running the blower improves the
>>>>>>> airflow *to* the engine? It sucj=ks air away from the engine and is
>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>> inefficnet at that according to Jeff). The suction from the air intake
>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the engine itself when the piston is drawing in air probaly exceeds the
>>>>>>> suction from the blower by a factor of about 50 at a guess.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only if your blower was reversed to pump air INTO the engine
>>>>> compartment
>>>>>>> would any possible benefit be accrued, surely?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just a thought
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graeme
>>>>>>>> #366
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 15 Mar 2018, at 04:26, Donald Lawson <dnclaws at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMO.
>>>>>>>>> When I rebuilt/ replaced my engine(s) I learned a lot about the
>>>>> Amount of
>>>>>>> air a Diesel needs to run. It needs a lot of cold air to run
>>>>> efficiently.
>>>>>>>>> I run the blower while the engine is running, not to cool the engine,
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> to ensure that I provide the engine with enough cool combustion air.
>>>>>>>>> I agree with Jeff that the blower is not used for cooling the engine
>>>>>>>>> although I don't quite agree about better paths of air for engine run.
>>>>>>>>> My aft cabin mattress pretty much precludes that. HOWEVER If you
>>>>>>>>> removed the hoses there may be enough SQ area of opening to get rid of
>>>>>>> them. Will do the math and get back to ya'll, but I seem to remember a
>>>>> 3in
>>>>>>> dia hole is enough for a 2GM20. We have 2, so may not be an issue. I
>>>>> will
>>>>>>> rid myself of them in the future. I pretty much crushed them working on
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> fridge anyway.
>>>>>>>>> Don Lawson
>>>>>>>>> #1104
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Jeff Hare wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not to be critical of anyone's answers, because it's great to bounce
>>>>>>> these thoughts around to help refine your logic, but seriously don't
>>>>>>> over-think this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The engine doesn't need cool ambient air to keep it cool, that's what
>>>>>>> the raw water heat exchanger is all about. Otherwise they would not put
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> in an insulated box with a couple lengths of dryer hose. It also
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> need any duct work to feed it air to run because there are SO many
>>>>> better
>>>>>>> paths for hull-cooled bilge air to get into the engine that it's simply
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> non-issue.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you really believe that the blower reduces the heat in the aft
>>>>> cabin
>>>>>>> with the stock hoses, awesome, but it really doesn't. No way you're
>>>>> moving
>>>>>>> that much heat out through those crinkled half crushed hoses with our
>>>>> anemic
>>>>>>> blower. LOL! You'd have to run the blower till the engine block cools
>>>>> down
>>>>>>> quite a bit to make any real difference or it'll just reheat the air
>>>>> again.
>>>>>>> By then someone sharing the mooring field with you would have launched a
>>>>>>> torpedo at your boat because of all the racket that thing produces.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to help remove any excess aft cabin heat, I'd
>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>> that you open the aft cabin access door at the foot of the bed and aft
>>>>>>> cockpit locker above the fridge compressor and let convection take
>>>>> over. If
>>>>>>> you really wanted to use hoses for some reason, you'd need 4" smooth
>>>>> wall
>>>>>>> hoses that have fewer bends and a more powerful blower to actually get
>>>>> any
>>>>>>> reasonable airflow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm pretty certain that the blower and the hoses were only installed
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> satisfy outdated requirements for a bilge blower (which diesels are
>>>>> exempt
>>>>>>> from now in the US anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>>>> #809 stay'n hoseless :)
>>>>>>>>>> -Jeff Hare
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf
>>>>>>>>>> Of John Meyers
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 3:23 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] ENGINE SPACE VENTING
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If thing for convection to work you may need one of the openings to
>>>>> be
>>>>>>> connected to a hose with one end lower than the one without a hose. The
>>>>> one
>>>>>>> with the hose will let cold/fresh air in when the hot air rises to the
>>>>> vent
>>>>>>> without the hose.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John Meyers (The other John M)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:08 AM, John morrison
>>>>>>>>>> <sail-ability at sympatico.ca>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I attended a surveying seminar on the weekend, and for those who
>>>>>>>>>>> may not know ( I didn't) diesel engine spaces do not require forced
>>>>>>>>>>> ventilation in order to pass a survey. You may want to have it for
>>>>>>>>>>> other reasons as has been mentioned in this forum. I intend to
>>>>>>>>>>> remove the vent hoses from the cowls and let the space vent by
>>>>>>> convection.
>>>>>>>>>>> The cowls are high up in the stern so warm air should exit pretty
>>>>>>>>>>> well, we'll see how that works. When the hoses are attached the
>>>>>>>>>>> cowl holes are blocked and hot air from the engine, fridge
>>>>>>>>>>> compressor, cannot escape; unless of course the blower is r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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