[C320-list] C320-list Digest, Vol 4149, Issue 2
Bob Hoyt
rehoyt at gmail.com
Tue Dec 7 13:56:50 PST 2021
re: Inadequate starting battery
Thanks for your input. This Duralast DP-DL battery is a starting battery.
This week I will check all connections and see if I can find any
explanation for the inadequate power. Based on forum comments I don't think
I will proceed with larger gauge wire or a larger group battery until I am
satisfied that there is no other explanation
Bob
On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 3:18 PM <c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery (P.F. Ross)
> 2. Re: Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery (Jeff Hare)
> 3. Re: Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery (P.F. Ross)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 14:36:27 -0600
> From: "P.F. Ross" <pfrstl at gmail.com>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> Message-ID:
> <
> CADNKO4A+cvJTac443xQL4RtpLSTKhM+cCSfvOLMWBCJGYYtmhQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Joe,
>
> I also had 8Ds last for nearly 8 years but that was when I had limited
> sailing area on an inland lake and spent one, maybe two nights on the hook
> somewhere. I was also afraid to use my refrigerator for fear of not being
> able to start one morning (nearly happened early on in my ownership, having
> owned the boat since new). Admittedly, I had no battery condition monitor
> at that time, so it was all guesswork.
>
> When I moved my boat to SW FL and was able to cruise farther, I looked into
> upgrading my electrical storage options. There are tons of resources
> online, but this page in particular moved me to golf cart batteries, Trojan
> T-105s in my case.
>
> https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
>
> I also added other upgrades including a modern charger, battery monitor and
> automatic charging relay along with wiring modifications for an "always
> hot" bus and proper overcurrent protection (sadly lacking as OE, at least
> on my old boat). I have yet to upgrade my alternator and engine charging
> system, but so far my setup allows me to spend three nights out without any
> worry. It also helps that I have changed all lighting to LED.
>
> None of this is my original discovery, but instead I owe much to others on
> this list who have come before me.
>
> A final benefit to the golf cart batts is that they are easier for me to
> man-handle if need be since there are 4 smaller units rather than 2
> ginormous ones. Doable 25 years ago, now at 69 not so much.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frank Ross
> Beta Wave #206
>
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM Hans Dose <hans.dose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I know this doesn't directly address your issue, but one more thing to
> keep
> > in the back of your mind for anyone with a Yanmar 3GM30F... There is a
> > compression release on top of each cylinder. Pulling one back before
> > cranking the motor makes it turn over much easier. Then releasing it
> once
> > the flywheel has some momentum will make for an easier start. And the
> more
> > cylinders you do that with, the easier it gets. I've often thought of
> > making linkage from a straight piece of metal that I could tie a line to
> it
> > in case I ever had to do that alone from the helm. They are a throwback
> > from when you could hand start the engines with a crank. I did it a lot
> on
> > single & two cylinder Yanmars with no battery when I lived in the Amazon
> > region of Brazil.
> >
> > Hans Dose
> > 1999 hull #569 "King's X"
> > Alamitos Bay - Long Beach, CA
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:58 AM Onat Dogruer <onatdogruer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > I tend to be very cautious before commenting without knowing how things
> > are
> > > wired on someone's boat. However, the issue doesn't sound like a wire
> > gauge
> > > issue. Typically older diesels have a higher cranking amp requirement,
> > > recommended 450-500CCA min starting battery. Our 1998 has a Yanmar
> 3GM30F
> > > and starting surge is 283A. The start surge is only for a second or
> two
> > > and once the engine kicks up, alternator starts feeding back. Our setup
> > is
> > > slightly similar; we have deep cycle golf cart batteries but we always
> > > start on that bank. Aux battery serves as an emergency start.
> > >
> > > G27 batteries should be more than adequate; even a good G24 will
> suffice.
> > > The issue might be the 'new' battery may not actually be in good
> > > condition.
> > > Alternatively, there may be a loose terminal (even a slight wobble will
> > > decrease output). If I were facing this, I would start by the simplest
> > and
> > > check the terminals, go over the wiring of the house bank and of the
> > > starting battery, and lastly may do a load-test on the starting
> battery.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I recently installed a Duralast G27 Marine battery to serve as a
> > > dedicated
> > > > starting battery to go with my house batteries (4 six-volt golf cart
> > > > batteries in series). I installed it just forward of the starboard
> > > battery
> > > > compartment. The existing cables are listed as 4 gauge, so I thought
> > they
> > > > were adequate.
> > > > With a fully charged new battery and either a cold or warm engine,
> the
> > > > motor will barely turn over. With the battery selector on all, it
> > starts
> > > > quickly. Is the group 27 battery underpowered or do I need to change
> > the
> > > > wire from the battery to the main switch and wire from the switch to
> > the
> > > > starter motor to 2 gauge? Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Bob Hoyt
> > > > Hull 154
> > > > 1994 C320 "Ikigai"
> > > > Pensacola, Fl
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
> > > >
> > > > *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
> > > >
> > > > *Virginia Commonwealth University*
> > > >
> > > > *Richmond, VA*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *CAPT (Ret) USN*
> > > >
> > > > InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
> > > > rehoyt at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > Cell: 850-384-5235
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 15:42:01 -0500
> From: "Jeff Hare" <Catalina at thehares.com>
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> Message-ID: <020b01d7ebaa$e39d1810$aad74830$@thehares.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Frank,
> I think you meant a pair of 4D batteries, right?
> 8D's don't fit in the C320 battery compartment. They're just a bit too
> wide and tall. I tried every possible way back in the day to modify that
> space to hold them but to no avail.
>
> -Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
> P.F. Ross
> Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 3:36 PM
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
>
> Joe,
>
> I also had 8Ds last for nearly 8 years but that was when I had limited
> sailing area on an inland lake and spent one, maybe two nights on the hook
> somewhere. I was also afraid to use my refrigerator for fear of not being
> able to start one morning (nearly happened early on in my ownership, having
> owned the boat since new). Admittedly, I had no battery condition monitor
> at that time, so it was all guesswork.
>
> When I moved my boat to SW FL and was able to cruise farther, I looked
> into upgrading my electrical storage options. There are tons of resources
> online, but this page in particular moved me to golf cart batteries, Trojan
> T-105s in my case.
>
> https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
>
> I also added other upgrades including a modern charger, battery monitor
> and automatic charging relay along with wiring modifications for an "always
> hot" bus and proper overcurrent protection (sadly lacking as OE, at least
> on my old boat). I have yet to upgrade my alternator and engine charging
> system, but so far my setup allows me to spend three nights out without any
> worry. It also helps that I have changed all lighting to LED.
>
> None of this is my original discovery, but instead I owe much to others on
> this list who have come before me.
>
> A final benefit to the golf cart batts is that they are easier for me to
> man-handle if need be since there are 4 smaller units rather than 2
> ginormous ones. Doable 25 years ago, now at 69 not so much.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frank Ross
> Beta Wave #206
>
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM Hans Dose <hans.dose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I know this doesn't directly address your issue, but one more thing to
> > keep in the back of your mind for anyone with a Yanmar 3GM30F... There
> > is a compression release on top of each cylinder. Pulling one back
> > before cranking the motor makes it turn over much easier. Then
> > releasing it once the flywheel has some momentum will make for an
> > easier start. And the more cylinders you do that with, the easier it
> > gets. I've often thought of making linkage from a straight piece of
> > metal that I could tie a line to it in case I ever had to do that
> > alone from the helm. They are a throwback from when you could hand
> > start the engines with a crank. I did it a lot on single & two
> > cylinder Yanmars with no battery when I lived in the Amazon region of
> Brazil.
> >
> > Hans Dose
> > 1999 hull #569 "King's X"
> > Alamitos Bay - Long Beach, CA
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:58 AM Onat Dogruer <onatdogruer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > I tend to be very cautious before commenting without knowing how
> > > things
> > are
> > > wired on someone's boat. However, the issue doesn't sound like a
> > > wire
> > gauge
> > > issue. Typically older diesels have a higher cranking amp
> > > requirement, recommended 450-500CCA min starting battery. Our 1998
> > > has a Yanmar 3GM30F and starting surge is 283A. The start surge is
> > > only for a second or two and once the engine kicks up, alternator
> > > starts feeding back. Our setup
> > is
> > > slightly similar; we have deep cycle golf cart batteries but we
> > > always start on that bank. Aux battery serves as an emergency start.
> > >
> > > G27 batteries should be more than adequate; even a good G24 will
> suffice.
> > > The issue might be the 'new' battery may not actually be in good
> > > condition.
> > > Alternatively, there may be a loose terminal (even a slight wobble
> > > will decrease output). If I were facing this, I would start by the
> > > simplest
> > and
> > > check the terminals, go over the wiring of the house bank and of the
> > > starting battery, and lastly may do a load-test on the starting
> battery.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I recently installed a Duralast G27 Marine battery to serve as a
> > > dedicated
> > > > starting battery to go with my house batteries (4 six-volt golf
> > > > cart batteries in series). I installed it just forward of the
> > > > starboard
> > > battery
> > > > compartment. The existing cables are listed as 4 gauge, so I
> > > > thought
> > they
> > > > were adequate.
> > > > With a fully charged new battery and either a cold or warm engine,
> > > > the motor will barely turn over. With the battery selector on all,
> > > > it
> > starts
> > > > quickly. Is the group 27 battery underpowered or do I need to
> > > > change
> > the
> > > > wire from the battery to the main switch and wire from the switch
> > > > to
> > the
> > > > starter motor to 2 gauge? Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Bob Hoyt
> > > > Hull 154
> > > > 1994 C320 "Ikigai"
> > > > Pensacola, Fl
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
> > > >
> > > > *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
> > > >
> > > > *Virginia Commonwealth University*
> > > >
> > > > *Richmond, VA*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *CAPT (Ret) USN*
> > > >
> > > > InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
> > > > rehoyt at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > Cell: 850-384-5235
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 14:43:58 -0600
> From: "P.F. Ross" <pfrstl at gmail.com>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> Message-ID:
> <
> CADNKO4DgPPvB6uR+WOo7CnzRuHKzUcMgM03hi7HzgLypN8733Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> D'Oh!
>
> Yes, 4D! The ones that originally came in my boat!
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 2:42 PM Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
>
> > Frank,
> > I think you meant a pair of 4D batteries, right?
> > 8D's don't fit in the C320 battery compartment. They're just a bit too
> > wide and tall. I tried every possible way back in the day to modify that
> > space to hold them but to no avail.
> >
> > -Jeff
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
> > P.F. Ross
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 3:36 PM
> > To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I also had 8Ds last for nearly 8 years but that was when I had limited
> > sailing area on an inland lake and spent one, maybe two nights on the
> hook
> > somewhere. I was also afraid to use my refrigerator for fear of not
> being
> > able to start one morning (nearly happened early on in my ownership,
> having
> > owned the boat since new). Admittedly, I had no battery condition
> monitor
> > at that time, so it was all guesswork.
> >
> > When I moved my boat to SW FL and was able to cruise farther, I looked
> > into upgrading my electrical storage options. There are tons of
> resources
> > online, but this page in particular moved me to golf cart batteries,
> Trojan
> > T-105s in my case.
> >
> > https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
> >
> > I also added other upgrades including a modern charger, battery monitor
> > and automatic charging relay along with wiring modifications for an
> "always
> > hot" bus and proper overcurrent protection (sadly lacking as OE, at least
> > on my old boat). I have yet to upgrade my alternator and engine charging
> > system, but so far my setup allows me to spend three nights out without
> any
> > worry. It also helps that I have changed all lighting to LED.
> >
> > None of this is my original discovery, but instead I owe much to others
> on
> > this list who have come before me.
> >
> > A final benefit to the golf cart batts is that they are easier for me to
> > man-handle if need be since there are 4 smaller units rather than 2
> > ginormous ones. Doable 25 years ago, now at 69 not so much.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Frank Ross
> > Beta Wave #206
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM Hans Dose <hans.dose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I know this doesn't directly address your issue, but one more thing to
> > > keep in the back of your mind for anyone with a Yanmar 3GM30F... There
> > > is a compression release on top of each cylinder. Pulling one back
> > > before cranking the motor makes it turn over much easier. Then
> > > releasing it once the flywheel has some momentum will make for an
> > > easier start. And the more cylinders you do that with, the easier it
> > > gets. I've often thought of making linkage from a straight piece of
> > > metal that I could tie a line to it in case I ever had to do that
> > > alone from the helm. They are a throwback from when you could hand
> > > start the engines with a crank. I did it a lot on single & two
> > > cylinder Yanmars with no battery when I lived in the Amazon region of
> > Brazil.
> > >
> > > Hans Dose
> > > 1999 hull #569 "King's X"
> > > Alamitos Bay - Long Beach, CA
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:58 AM Onat Dogruer <onatdogruer at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Bob,
> > > >
> > > > I tend to be very cautious before commenting without knowing how
> > > > things
> > > are
> > > > wired on someone's boat. However, the issue doesn't sound like a
> > > > wire
> > > gauge
> > > > issue. Typically older diesels have a higher cranking amp
> > > > requirement, recommended 450-500CCA min starting battery. Our 1998
> > > > has a Yanmar 3GM30F and starting surge is 283A. The start surge is
> > > > only for a second or two and once the engine kicks up, alternator
> > > > starts feeding back. Our setup
> > > is
> > > > slightly similar; we have deep cycle golf cart batteries but we
> > > > always start on that bank. Aux battery serves as an emergency start.
> > > >
> > > > G27 batteries should be more than adequate; even a good G24 will
> > suffice.
> > > > The issue might be the 'new' battery may not actually be in good
> > > > condition.
> > > > Alternatively, there may be a loose terminal (even a slight wobble
> > > > will decrease output). If I were facing this, I would start by the
> > > > simplest
> > > and
> > > > check the terminals, go over the wiring of the house bank and of the
> > > > starting battery, and lastly may do a load-test on the starting
> > battery.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I recently installed a Duralast G27 Marine battery to serve as a
> > > > dedicated
> > > > > starting battery to go with my house batteries (4 six-volt golf
> > > > > cart batteries in series). I installed it just forward of the
> > > > > starboard
> > > > battery
> > > > > compartment. The existing cables are listed as 4 gauge, so I
> > > > > thought
> > > they
> > > > > were adequate.
> > > > > With a fully charged new battery and either a cold or warm engine,
> > > > > the motor will barely turn over. With the battery selector on all,
> > > > > it
> > > starts
> > > > > quickly. Is the group 27 battery underpowered or do I need to
> > > > > change
> > > the
> > > > > wire from the battery to the main switch and wire from the switch
> > > > > to
> > > the
> > > > > starter motor to 2 gauge? Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob Hoyt
> > > > > Hull 154
> > > > > 1994 C320 "Ikigai"
> > > > > Pensacola, Fl
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
> > > > >
> > > > > *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
> > > > >
> > > > > *Virginia Commonwealth University*
> > > > >
> > > > > *Richmond, VA*
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > *CAPT (Ret) USN*
> > > > >
> > > > > InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
> > > > > rehoyt at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Cell: 850-384-5235
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 4149, Issue 2
> ******************************************
>
--
*Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
*Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
*Virginia Commonwealth University*
*Richmond, VA*
*CAPT (Ret) USN*
InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
rehoyt at gmail.com
Cell: 850-384-5235
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