[C320-list] C320-list Digest, Vol 4149, Issue 2
Jeff Hare
Catalina at thehares.com
Tue Dec 7 15:31:12 PST 2021
Ah ok. There are both kinds and the Duralast G27 Marine Battery comes in a few flavors Deep Cycle or Deep Cycle/Starting combo and Starting only. Deep cycle and combo versions won't do and many of us have been down that road.
If it's super weak starting the engine, yet the main house batteries start it fine, the rest of the explanation about wire gauge and condition of the contacts are probably spot on.
-Cheers!
-Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of Bob Hoyt
Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 4:57 PM
To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] C320-list Digest, Vol 4149, Issue 2
re: Inadequate starting battery
Thanks for your input. This Duralast DP-DL battery is a starting battery.
This week I will check all connections and see if I can find any explanation for the inadequate power. Based on forum comments I don't think I will proceed with larger gauge wire or a larger group battery until I am satisfied that there is no other explanation
Bob
On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 3:18 PM <c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery (P.F. Ross)
> 2. Re: Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery (Jeff Hare)
> 3. Re: Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery (P.F. Ross)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 14:36:27 -0600
> From: "P.F. Ross" <pfrstl at gmail.com>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> Message-ID:
> <
> CADNKO4A+cvJTac443xQL4RtpLSTKhM+cCSfvOLMWBCJGYYtmhQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Joe,
>
> I also had 8Ds last for nearly 8 years but that was when I had limited
> sailing area on an inland lake and spent one, maybe two nights on the
> hook somewhere. I was also afraid to use my refrigerator for fear of
> not being able to start one morning (nearly happened early on in my
> ownership, having owned the boat since new). Admittedly, I had no
> battery condition monitor at that time, so it was all guesswork.
>
> When I moved my boat to SW FL and was able to cruise farther, I looked
> into upgrading my electrical storage options. There are tons of
> resources online, but this page in particular moved me to golf cart
> batteries, Trojan T-105s in my case.
>
> https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
>
> I also added other upgrades including a modern charger, battery
> monitor and automatic charging relay along with wiring modifications
> for an "always hot" bus and proper overcurrent protection (sadly
> lacking as OE, at least on my old boat). I have yet to upgrade my
> alternator and engine charging system, but so far my setup allows me
> to spend three nights out without any worry. It also helps that I have changed all lighting to LED.
>
> None of this is my original discovery, but instead I owe much to
> others on this list who have come before me.
>
> A final benefit to the golf cart batts is that they are easier for me
> to man-handle if need be since there are 4 smaller units rather than 2
> ginormous ones. Doable 25 years ago, now at 69 not so much.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frank Ross
> Beta Wave #206
>
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM Hans Dose <hans.dose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I know this doesn't directly address your issue, but one more thing
> > to
> keep
> > in the back of your mind for anyone with a Yanmar 3GM30F... There is
> > a compression release on top of each cylinder. Pulling one back
> > before cranking the motor makes it turn over much easier. Then
> > releasing it
> once
> > the flywheel has some momentum will make for an easier start. And
> > the
> more
> > cylinders you do that with, the easier it gets. I've often thought
> > of making linkage from a straight piece of metal that I could tie a
> > line to
> it
> > in case I ever had to do that alone from the helm. They are a
> > throwback from when you could hand start the engines with a crank.
> > I did it a lot
> on
> > single & two cylinder Yanmars with no battery when I lived in the
> > Amazon region of Brazil.
> >
> > Hans Dose
> > 1999 hull #569 "King's X"
> > Alamitos Bay - Long Beach, CA
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:58 AM Onat Dogruer <onatdogruer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > I tend to be very cautious before commenting without knowing how
> > > things
> > are
> > > wired on someone's boat. However, the issue doesn't sound like a
> > > wire
> > gauge
> > > issue. Typically older diesels have a higher cranking amp
> > > requirement, recommended 450-500CCA min starting battery. Our 1998
> > > has a Yanmar
> 3GM30F
> > > and starting surge is 283A. The start surge is only for a second
> > > or
> two
> > > and once the engine kicks up, alternator starts feeding back. Our
> > > setup
> > is
> > > slightly similar; we have deep cycle golf cart batteries but we
> > > always start on that bank. Aux battery serves as an emergency start.
> > >
> > > G27 batteries should be more than adequate; even a good G24 will
> suffice.
> > > The issue might be the 'new' battery may not actually be in good
> > > condition.
> > > Alternatively, there may be a loose terminal (even a slight wobble
> > > will decrease output). If I were facing this, I would start by
> > > the simplest
> > and
> > > check the terminals, go over the wiring of the house bank and of
> > > the starting battery, and lastly may do a load-test on the
> > > starting
> battery.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I recently installed a Duralast G27 Marine battery to serve as a
> > > dedicated
> > > > starting battery to go with my house batteries (4 six-volt golf
> > > > cart batteries in series). I installed it just forward of the
> > > > starboard
> > > battery
> > > > compartment. The existing cables are listed as 4 gauge, so I
> > > > thought
> > they
> > > > were adequate.
> > > > With a fully charged new battery and either a cold or warm
> > > > engine,
> the
> > > > motor will barely turn over. With the battery selector on all,
> > > > it
> > starts
> > > > quickly. Is the group 27 battery underpowered or do I need to
> > > > change
> > the
> > > > wire from the battery to the main switch and wire from the
> > > > switch to
> > the
> > > > starter motor to 2 gauge? Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Bob Hoyt
> > > > Hull 154
> > > > 1994 C320 "Ikigai"
> > > > Pensacola, Fl
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
> > > >
> > > > *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
> > > >
> > > > *Virginia Commonwealth University*
> > > >
> > > > *Richmond, VA*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *CAPT (Ret) USN*
> > > >
> > > > InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
> > > > rehoyt at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > Cell: 850-384-5235
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 15:42:01 -0500
> From: "Jeff Hare" <Catalina at thehares.com>
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> Message-ID: <020b01d7ebaa$e39d1810$aad74830$@thehares.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Frank,
> I think you meant a pair of 4D batteries, right?
> 8D's don't fit in the C320 battery compartment. They're just a bit too
> wide and tall. I tried every possible way back in the day to modify
> that space to hold them but to no avail.
>
> -Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
> P.F. Ross
> Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 3:36 PM
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
>
> Joe,
>
> I also had 8Ds last for nearly 8 years but that was when I had limited
> sailing area on an inland lake and spent one, maybe two nights on the
> hook somewhere. I was also afraid to use my refrigerator for fear of
> not being able to start one morning (nearly happened early on in my
> ownership, having owned the boat since new). Admittedly, I had no
> battery condition monitor at that time, so it was all guesswork.
>
> When I moved my boat to SW FL and was able to cruise farther, I looked
> into upgrading my electrical storage options. There are tons of
> resources online, but this page in particular moved me to golf cart
> batteries, Trojan T-105s in my case.
>
> https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
>
> I also added other upgrades including a modern charger, battery
> monitor and automatic charging relay along with wiring modifications
> for an "always hot" bus and proper overcurrent protection (sadly
> lacking as OE, at least on my old boat). I have yet to upgrade my
> alternator and engine charging system, but so far my setup allows me
> to spend three nights out without any worry. It also helps that I have changed all lighting to LED.
>
> None of this is my original discovery, but instead I owe much to
> others on this list who have come before me.
>
> A final benefit to the golf cart batts is that they are easier for me
> to man-handle if need be since there are 4 smaller units rather than 2
> ginormous ones. Doable 25 years ago, now at 69 not so much.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frank Ross
> Beta Wave #206
>
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM Hans Dose <hans.dose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I know this doesn't directly address your issue, but one more thing
> > to keep in the back of your mind for anyone with a Yanmar 3GM30F...
> > There is a compression release on top of each cylinder. Pulling one
> > back before cranking the motor makes it turn over much easier. Then
> > releasing it once the flywheel has some momentum will make for an
> > easier start. And the more cylinders you do that with, the easier
> > it gets. I've often thought of making linkage from a straight piece
> > of metal that I could tie a line to it in case I ever had to do that
> > alone from the helm. They are a throwback from when you could hand
> > start the engines with a crank. I did it a lot on single & two
> > cylinder Yanmars with no battery when I lived in the Amazon region
> > of
> Brazil.
> >
> > Hans Dose
> > 1999 hull #569 "King's X"
> > Alamitos Bay - Long Beach, CA
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:58 AM Onat Dogruer <onatdogruer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > I tend to be very cautious before commenting without knowing how
> > > things
> > are
> > > wired on someone's boat. However, the issue doesn't sound like a
> > > wire
> > gauge
> > > issue. Typically older diesels have a higher cranking amp
> > > requirement, recommended 450-500CCA min starting battery. Our 1998
> > > has a Yanmar 3GM30F and starting surge is 283A. The start surge
> > > is only for a second or two and once the engine kicks up,
> > > alternator starts feeding back. Our setup
> > is
> > > slightly similar; we have deep cycle golf cart batteries but we
> > > always start on that bank. Aux battery serves as an emergency start.
> > >
> > > G27 batteries should be more than adequate; even a good G24 will
> suffice.
> > > The issue might be the 'new' battery may not actually be in good
> > > condition.
> > > Alternatively, there may be a loose terminal (even a slight wobble
> > > will decrease output). If I were facing this, I would start by
> > > the simplest
> > and
> > > check the terminals, go over the wiring of the house bank and of
> > > the starting battery, and lastly may do a load-test on the
> > > starting
> battery.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I recently installed a Duralast G27 Marine battery to serve as a
> > > dedicated
> > > > starting battery to go with my house batteries (4 six-volt golf
> > > > cart batteries in series). I installed it just forward of the
> > > > starboard
> > > battery
> > > > compartment. The existing cables are listed as 4 gauge, so I
> > > > thought
> > they
> > > > were adequate.
> > > > With a fully charged new battery and either a cold or warm
> > > > engine, the motor will barely turn over. With the battery
> > > > selector on all, it
> > starts
> > > > quickly. Is the group 27 battery underpowered or do I need to
> > > > change
> > the
> > > > wire from the battery to the main switch and wire from the
> > > > switch to
> > the
> > > > starter motor to 2 gauge? Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Bob Hoyt
> > > > Hull 154
> > > > 1994 C320 "Ikigai"
> > > > Pensacola, Fl
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
> > > >
> > > > *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
> > > >
> > > > *Virginia Commonwealth University*
> > > >
> > > > *Richmond, VA*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *CAPT (Ret) USN*
> > > >
> > > > InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
> > > > rehoyt at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > Cell: 850-384-5235
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 14:43:58 -0600
> From: "P.F. Ross" <pfrstl at gmail.com>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> Message-ID:
> <
> CADNKO4DgPPvB6uR+WOo7CnzRuHKzUcMgM03hi7HzgLypN8733Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> D'Oh!
>
> Yes, 4D! The ones that originally came in my boat!
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 2:42 PM Jeff Hare <Catalina at thehares.com> wrote:
>
> > Frank,
> > I think you meant a pair of 4D batteries, right?
> > 8D's don't fit in the C320 battery compartment. They're just a bit
> > too wide and tall. I tried every possible way back in the day to
> > modify that space to hold them but to no avail.
> >
> > -Jeff
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf
> > Of P.F. Ross
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 3:36 PM
> > To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> > Subject: Re: [C320-list] Inadequate Dedicated Starting Battery
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I also had 8Ds last for nearly 8 years but that was when I had
> > limited sailing area on an inland lake and spent one, maybe two
> > nights on the
> hook
> > somewhere. I was also afraid to use my refrigerator for fear of not
> being
> > able to start one morning (nearly happened early on in my ownership,
> having
> > owned the boat since new). Admittedly, I had no battery condition
> monitor
> > at that time, so it was all guesswork.
> >
> > When I moved my boat to SW FL and was able to cruise farther, I
> > looked into upgrading my electrical storage options. There are tons
> > of
> resources
> > online, but this page in particular moved me to golf cart batteries,
> Trojan
> > T-105s in my case.
> >
> > https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
> >
> > I also added other upgrades including a modern charger, battery
> > monitor and automatic charging relay along with wiring modifications
> > for an
> "always
> > hot" bus and proper overcurrent protection (sadly lacking as OE, at
> > least on my old boat). I have yet to upgrade my alternator and
> > engine charging system, but so far my setup allows me to spend three
> > nights out without
> any
> > worry. It also helps that I have changed all lighting to LED.
> >
> > None of this is my original discovery, but instead I owe much to
> > others
> on
> > this list who have come before me.
> >
> > A final benefit to the golf cart batts is that they are easier for
> > me to man-handle if need be since there are 4 smaller units rather
> > than 2 ginormous ones. Doable 25 years ago, now at 69 not so much.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Frank Ross
> > Beta Wave #206
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM Hans Dose <hans.dose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I know this doesn't directly address your issue, but one more
> > > thing to keep in the back of your mind for anyone with a Yanmar
> > > 3GM30F... There is a compression release on top of each cylinder.
> > > Pulling one back before cranking the motor makes it turn over much
> > > easier. Then releasing it once the flywheel has some momentum
> > > will make for an easier start. And the more cylinders you do that
> > > with, the easier it gets. I've often thought of making linkage
> > > from a straight piece of metal that I could tie a line to it in
> > > case I ever had to do that alone from the helm. They are a
> > > throwback from when you could hand start the engines with a crank.
> > > I did it a lot on single & two cylinder Yanmars with no battery
> > > when I lived in the Amazon region of
> > Brazil.
> > >
> > > Hans Dose
> > > 1999 hull #569 "King's X"
> > > Alamitos Bay - Long Beach, CA
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:58 AM Onat Dogruer
> > > <onatdogruer at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Bob,
> > > >
> > > > I tend to be very cautious before commenting without knowing how
> > > > things
> > > are
> > > > wired on someone's boat. However, the issue doesn't sound like a
> > > > wire
> > > gauge
> > > > issue. Typically older diesels have a higher cranking amp
> > > > requirement, recommended 450-500CCA min starting battery. Our
> > > > 1998 has a Yanmar 3GM30F and starting surge is 283A. The start
> > > > surge is only for a second or two and once the engine kicks up,
> > > > alternator starts feeding back. Our setup
> > > is
> > > > slightly similar; we have deep cycle golf cart batteries but we
> > > > always start on that bank. Aux battery serves as an emergency start.
> > > >
> > > > G27 batteries should be more than adequate; even a good G24 will
> > suffice.
> > > > The issue might be the 'new' battery may not actually be in good
> > > > condition.
> > > > Alternatively, there may be a loose terminal (even a slight
> > > > wobble will decrease output). If I were facing this, I would
> > > > start by the simplest
> > > and
> > > > check the terminals, go over the wiring of the house bank and of
> > > > the starting battery, and lastly may do a load-test on the
> > > > starting
> > battery.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I recently installed a Duralast G27 Marine battery to serve as
> > > > > a
> > > > dedicated
> > > > > starting battery to go with my house batteries (4 six-volt
> > > > > golf cart batteries in series). I installed it just forward of
> > > > > the starboard
> > > > battery
> > > > > compartment. The existing cables are listed as 4 gauge, so I
> > > > > thought
> > > they
> > > > > were adequate.
> > > > > With a fully charged new battery and either a cold or warm
> > > > > engine, the motor will barely turn over. With the battery
> > > > > selector on all, it
> > > starts
> > > > > quickly. Is the group 27 battery underpowered or do I need to
> > > > > change
> > > the
> > > > > wire from the battery to the main switch and wire from the
> > > > > switch to
> > > the
> > > > > starter motor to 2 gauge? Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob Hoyt
> > > > > Hull 154
> > > > > 1994 C320 "Ikigai"
> > > > > Pensacola, Fl
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
> > > > >
> > > > > *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal
> > > > > Medicine*
> > > > >
> > > > > *Virginia Commonwealth University*
> > > > >
> > > > > *Richmond, VA*
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > *CAPT (Ret) USN*
> > > > >
> > > > > InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
> > > > > rehoyt at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Cell: 850-384-5235
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 4149, Issue 2
> ******************************************
>
--
*Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
*Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
*Virginia Commonwealth University*
*Richmond, VA*
*CAPT (Ret) USN*
InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org> rehoyt at gmail.com
Cell: 850-384-5235
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