[C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymmetrics.

[Scott Thompson]

I've added a photo of the masthead of my 1999 boat (hull 653) to the 
website that might help others understand the masthead halyard 
configuration.  See:
 
http://www.catalina320.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album37&id=IMG_3054

There are four exit sheaves on the forward side of the mast, two above 
the headstay and two just below.  The latter are for jibs while the 
former are for spinnakers.  I have a jib halyard exiting the lower port 
sheave (and led through a separate fairlead below the sheave).  I have a 
spinnaker halyard exiting the port upper sheave.  (In the photo, the 
spinnaker halyard is wrapped aft and around the port side of the mast 
temporarily, because I was using it as my safety backup while climbing 
the mast on the main halyard.)  Because the spinnaker halyard exits 
above the headstay it can be safely jibed without fouling on the 
headstay.  Obviously different boats might be rigged differently even if 
they have the same number of halyards.

The arrangement on my boat is not ideal in terms of chafe, but then I 
don't fly the chute that often or for long periods of time.  There is a 
bit of a tendency for the sock to bunch up at the top.  But the 
so-called "cranes" that I've seen for the 320 do not actually put the 
turning block very far forward of the headstay, and so probably do not 
actually make much of a difference in this respect.

Scott Thompson
"Surprise", 653


Robert E. Sloat wrote:
> Irv-The weather here on southern Lake Michigan has also been lousy for
> sailing of late, which leaves time to talk about 320s.  Almost 5 straight
> days of rain and mist.  It feels like Portland, OR.
> 
> Below are my comments to your questions:
> 
> With 2 fairheads, it looks like you have a set up for 2 jib halyards.
> These fairheads keep the jib halyards away from the furling gear and
> line up the halyard at the correct angle with the top swivel of the furling
> gear.
> 
> I wouldn't fly a spinnaker from the halyard leading down through
> a fairhead and below the forestay.  When you jibe the spinnaker it will 
> then
> cross and rub on the forestay and possible cause damage or, if your lucky,
> just chafe.  Flying the spinnaker from the fairhead would also put a lot of
> stress on the fairhead which is designed to slightly alter the jib halyard
> exiting the mast and not for a 90 degree turn of the
> halyard on a very large sail like the spinnaker.
> 
> If you do have a spinnaker halyard exiting the mast above the forestay 
> and then wandering down through a fairhead, you
> climb up the mast and pull the spinnaker halyard out from the fairhead
> and it will be ready for spinnaker use.  If it's really a jib halyard 
> exiting the mast below the forestay, then
> you need to redirect it through the correct spinnaker exit at the masthead.
> You may have to do this with the mast on the tarmac or by fishing lines
> through the mast.
> 
> My hull 894 has the jib halyard coming out of the port sheave below the
> forestay and through a single fairhead at the top of the mast.  Most 320's
> with furling head sails have this arrangement since the jib halyard 
> exits the mast near the deck on the port side.  There is only one 
> fairhead at the
> top of my mast which is for the jib halyard.  My spinnaker halyard comes 
> out of the mast at the port sheave above the
> forestay and goes directly to the spinnaker when it is flying.  There is no
> fairhead involved with this halyard.  The port exit doesn't make
> any difference when flying the spinnaker on either tack.  No chafe or any
> other problems flying at lot on either tack for 4-5 seasons.
> 
> There are six sheaves at the top of the mast (per the Charleston mast 
> owner's manual now on the 320 site).  The Charleston mast folks also spec
> out the 320's OC1 masthead as having 2 spinnaker and 2 jib sheaves at 
> the masthead along with a main and topping lift sheave.
> 
> Check out the 320 website for pictures that Jeff Church took of his top of
> his mast.  He has a crane on the masthead which you don't, but the pictures
> show the exit points for the jib and spinnaker halyards very clearly.  I
> believe his 320 is less than 10 years old so the mast configuration should
> be like our 800 vintage hull nos. You can see there are 2 exits for the
> spinnaker halyard which are side-by-side and they are above the 
> forestay. The masthead is also faired out to reduce halyard chafe.
> Below the headstay are the 2 side-by-side jib halyard exits.
> Look in the photo gallery index for the term "mast" and Jeff's pictures 
> will
> show you the halyard exits at the mast head.
> 
> I don't have the luff dimensions for my asymmetric, but the sailmaker (UK)
> did make sure it had the correct Catalina 320 specs and cut the size for
> intended use which was cruising and the ability to sail fairly easily at
> 150-160 degrees apparent and take fairly strong winds.
> 
> The tack line ends up in front of the bow pulpit when sailing rotating 
> the Tacker or your beads so its connection to the tack line is in front 
> of the furled genoa.  Mine goes through a Garhauer snatch block attached 
> to the OEM anchor bail and then back to whatever adjusting system you 
> use to raise or lower
> the tack line when needed.  I don't mind wandering to the bow with the
> spinnaker flying, so I use the anchor windless as my adjusting means for 
> the
> spinnaker tack.  The anchor rode is secured to a second cleat in the anchor
> well and I feed the spinnaker line through the opening in the anchor well
> door around the windlass and then to a cleat.  Down adjustment is
> with the windlass and up is by hand feeding.  This arrangement makes for 
> one
> less trip hazard on the foredeck.
> 
> The spinnaker sheets should be around twice your boat length according the
> sailmakers.  I use one red colored sheet for the port side and a green one
> for the starboard.  This helps with inexperienced crew since when you are
> flying the spinnaker since there is a lot of spinnaker sheet laying around
> the cockpit and the different colors help.  (With all this rope laying
> around, make sure none of it goes overboard and finds your propeller.)  
> They
> should also be as small in diameter as can be easily handled by crew and 
> the
> primaries.  The lighter sheets make tacking easier in light winds. Some 
> folks splice small diameter
> line to larger line with the latter the sheet you handle in the cockpit.  I
> have 65 feet of 3/8 inch New England Stay-Set for each sheet.  You could go
> a little smaller diameter as long as the sheet would work in the winches.
> 
> Lastly, my sailmaker supplied a regular sail bag with clips that attach to
> the lifelines to keep the thing from going overboard when launching the 
> sock.
> 
> I chose a sailmaker to do a turn key project, supplying me with the sail,
> bag, sock and tack arrangement all put together and delivered on a good to
> go basis.
> 
> You should also decide whether you want a tri-radial cut design which is
> stronger and more efficient since it stretches less at key points.
> That design is a little more expensive and may not be needed for many
> sailors.  Also, the sailmaker can recommend sailcloth weight for the 
> type of
> sailing you do.  I got fairly light weight cloth which is reinforced for
> strength.  It's only money and you can generally find additional things to
> eat up the funds!
> 
> 
> Bob Sloat
> Savannah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Irv Grunes" <igrunes at comcast.net>
> To: "C320-List" <c320-list at catalina320.com>
> Cc: "Seiden, Bob" <theseidens at earthlink.net>; "Oryniak,Tom&Coryn"
> <toryniak at patmedia.net>
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymmetrics.
> 
> 
>>
>> Bob,
>> Just back from the boat, and had to abort my sail week because of a
>> continuing bad weather forecast.
>> Also you have been my inspiration for going forward with this project.
>>
>> But I looked at the top of the mast with binoculars and found the
>> following.
>>
>> The jib halyard sheave is on the port side and the spimmaker halyard 
>> is on
>> the starboard side on #851
>>
>> Both halyards when comming off the sheaves go down through fairleads just
>> below the sheave.
>>
>> That means the halyard exit from the fairlead on #851 is BELOW the
>> forestay.
>> So Allen's pennant idea is an really good one, but 10 to 12 inches of
>> pennant should be enough for halyard chafe prevention.  And it appears
>> that
>> the raising and lowering of the Asym would best be done on the starboard
>> side to minimise any interferences.
>>
>> I also noticed that the down haul line for the tacker from the anchor
>> roller
>> would come up inside the pulpit.  The pulpit seems to extend beyond the
>> anchor roller.  Is this true with your installation??  And did you just
>> snap
>> shackle the block to to the bail above the anchor roller or somehow 
>> fasten
>> it direcly to the roller?
>>
>> Your email below with the tacker location of 5 feet  when running and 1.5
>> feet when reaching is very helpful
>>
>> What is the luff dimension of your Asym.? That seems to be the critical
>> dimension for where the tacker position will be.
>>
>> We are looking at a  sail with a luff of 43.5 and I am concerned that 
>> a 12
>> inch pennant may drop the sail tack too low for any kind of reaching.
>>
>> BTW, I bought 10 wooden balls 1 1/2 inch diameter from McMaster Carr
>> ($5.00) and 50 1/4 unch ID delrin washers (12.00) plus $5.00 freight.
>> Drilled a 1/4 inch hole in each. Strung the balls on an overall line 
>> of 30
>> inches, with 4 of the delrin washers between each ball for separation.
>> Took
>> it to the boat and it runs up and down the furled jib slick as a whistle.
>> Look at the neilprydesail.com website for a description and sketch of
>> their
>> "parrell bead" tacker.(They sell it for $52. and its a real bargain"
>>
>> Also what size and length sheets did you get for your Asym.
>>
>> And did the sailmaker give you a "turtle" to stow the Asym or do you just
>> use a sailbag.
>>
>> Planning on getting a sock from "chutescoop.com" 40 feet and will wait 
>> for
>> their boatshow special 15% discount which will make it around $220.00
>>
>> Thats my planned project
>>
>> Again, I can't thank you enoug for your encouragement in this project.
>>
>> Irv Grunes
>> Isle of Wight #851
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com
>> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com]On Behalf Of Robert E. Sloat
>> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:43 AM
>> To: C320-List
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymmetrics.
>>
>>
>> Irv-If you use a pennant, make sure it is no too long.  The length would
>> depend on the cut of the asymmetric used.  If too long, then you won't be
>> able to bring the tack down enough to straighten the luff which allows 
>> you
>> to more efficiently sail closer to the wind.  The higher the tack, the
>> farther from the wind you can sail and the lower the tack the closer you
>> can
>> sail.
>>
>> On my asymmetric, for up to around 150-160 degrees apparent, the tack is
>> about 5 feet up from the anchor bail.  This allows the luff to rotate to
>> windward and get farther away from the main's blanket.  For closer
>> sailing,
>> 60 degrees apparent with wind uder about 10 knots, the tack is around 1
>> 1/2
>> feet up from the bail.  You can notice how the luff gets straightened 
>> when
>> bringing the tack down and the spinnaker is more genoa-like in shape.
>>
>> Bob Sloat
>> Savannah 894 (2002)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Irv Grunes" <igrunes at comcast.net>
>> To: "C320-List" <c320-list at catalina320.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymetrics.
>>
>>
>>> Allan,
>>> The pennant idea seems to solve the halyard chafing difficulty that some
>>> have experienced.
>>>
>>> Was the shackle on the pennant a "swivel type" even though there may 
>>> be a
>>> swivel at the spinnaker head already
>>>
>>> Did you consider a stopper ball on the halyard before the actual halyard
>>> shackle to keep it from coming in contact with the spinnaker halyard
>>> sheave
>>> at the top of the mast.
>>>
>>> If ever can take a pix, send it off list to
>>>
>>> igrunes at comcast.net
>>>
>>> but your pennant description is very adequate.
>>>
>>> Irv Grunes
>>> Isle of Wight #851
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com
>>> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at catalina320.com]On Behalf Of
>>> allan.field at comcast.net
>>> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 3:15 PM
>>> To: C320-List
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mast Cranes and Asymetrics.
>>>
>>>
>>> Irv - I had the WM rigger make up an 18-inch pennant of vinyl coated
>>> wire.
>>> One end has a swaged-on shackle that clips onto the head of the sock.
>>> The
>>> other end has a swaged-on thimble that the spinnaker halyard hooks into.
>>> This way, any chafe at the top of the forestay or against the furler 
>>> drum
>>> is
>>> against this pennant instead of the rope halyard.  This seems to be much
>>> more economical than a crain.  I can take a pix and send it out next
>>> weekend
>>> if you'd like.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Allan S. Field
>>> Sea Shadow - #808
>>> Columbia, MD
>>>
>>> -------------- Original message --------------
>>> From: "Irv Grunes" <igrunes at comcast.net>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> We are still looking at Asymetrics. Looking for any comments on my
>>>> scheme
>>>> below to eliminte the need for a crane.
>>>>
>>>> Found this Quantun website:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.quantumsails.com/pdf/asymmetrical%20trim%20guide.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I sent this to my sailing partner:
>>>>
>>>
>> ============================================================================ 
>>
>>>> ===================
>>>>
>>>> BUT the Quantum article says:
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> What equipment do I need?
>>>>
>>>> . Spinnaker halyard that is above
>>>>
>>>> the forestay.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure of this BUT
>>>>
>>>> I think that our forestay goes to the top of the mast.
>>>>
>>>> I think the sheave for the spinnaker halyard is below it and lets 
>>>> assume
>>>> that it is on the port side.
>>>>
>>>> Then flying an asym on the port side, the halyard would not be in
>>>> contact
>>>> with the forestay.
>>>>
>>>> Then if jibeing the asym to the starboard side, the halyard would have
>>>> to
>>>> cross over the forestay and would probably chafe.
>>>>
>>>> As I think about it, I think the solution would be something like our
>>>> backstay adjuster that has the ball on the line to keep the thimble 
>>>> from
>>>> pulling up into the sheave. If a stopper ball were put on the 
>>>> halyard, a
>>>> knot on the halyard to hold the stopper ball, and then 8 inches or 
>>>> so of
>>>> chafe guard were put on the halyard and then the shackle to the 
>>>> halyard.
>>>>
>>>> Then the sail would be hoisted that 8 inches or so lower, but when
>>>> jibed,
>>>> the chafe guard would protect the halyard from the forestay.
>>>>
>>>> This would eliminate the requirement for a crane and allow us to use 
>>>> the
>>>> spinnaker halyard safely.
>>>>
>>>> I will bounce this off the list to see what response we get.
>>>>
>>>> Irv
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Bob Seiden [mailto:theseidens at earthlink.net]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 8:18 PM
>>>> To: Irv Grunes
>>>> Subject: Re: Asym's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> Requesting quotes from a lot of the lofts. Will keep you posted on the
>>>> quotes.
>>>>
>>>> Saw this at the quantum website. See for setting and dousing
>>>>
>>>> http://www.quantumsails.com/pdf/asymmetrical%20trim%20guide.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> READ IT!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We want it for running in light air. That would seem to mean the middle
>>>> sail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The diagrams seem to suggest that the head of the asymmetrical comes
>>>> well
>>>> below the top of the mast. Especially with a sock, that should keep the
>>>> head of the sail well away from anything it could chafe on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quantum says absolutely nothing about a crane.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
>