[C320-list] Mainsail Hard to Raise/Lower...update

[Robert Seastream]

All:

I just got back from the boat.  I removed the mainsail and attached a  
messenger halyard to the swivel for testing purposes.  I've confirmed  
that the swivel binds as it passes through the lower spreaders.   
Bummer.  Now, I've got to contact Charleston Spars, and my insurance  
carrier (BoatUS).  I'd contact Catalina as well, but it's a model year  
2002, well out of warranty.  As such, I don't see where Catalina bears  
any responsibility, but am exceedingly interested in what Charleston  
might have to say.

My preference would be to replace it without roller furling of any  
kind, for sailing performance and simplicity reasons.  Second choice  
would be boom furling, third, mast furling.  Since my mainsail was  
likely cut/designed with in mast furling in mind, (and I doubt my  
insurance carrier would replace the main on my whims), it looks like  
another in mast furler.  It remains to be seen whether it's replaced  
with another Charleston spar, or some other manufacturer.  My  
insurance carrier could also tell me to get lost.  Sigh.

Bob Seastream
Intuition # 906


On Oct 14, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Jack McDonough wrote:

> Dennis:
>
> Thank you. I know mine is not a safety concern -- except for me  
> having to go topside in choppy seas when lowering the main. I will  
> try, try again in the spring.
>
> jack
> #947

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Harris" <dharris02 at embarqmail.com 
> >
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 6:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mainsail Hard to Raise/Lower
>
>
>> Dave, Robert,
>>
>> Regarding the narrowing of the mast groove on your in mast furling  
>> systems, why don't you contact Charleston Spar directly at 704 597  
>> 1502 and talk directly to them regarding the problem.  If it is a  
>> serious problem, they probably have a fix for it, and perhaps a fix  
>> even if it is not a safety issue.  While my own mast is the  
>> conventional one with full batten sail, Catalina has been using the  
>> in mast furling system for many years now (it was available in  
>> 1999, and not sure how much earlier it was used).  The same basic  
>> design appears to be used on lots of models other than the C320.   
>> With the large number of subscribers on the C320 list over many  
>> years, if there was a serious safety issue (as in mast failure), it  
>> would have come to light well before now.  Therefore, I believe you  
>> can feel confident that the mast is not going to fail in normal use  
>> (assuming it is rigged correctly).  Since the masts are aluminum  
>> extrusions, it is probable that the same dies and metal composition  
>> have been used for all boats using the C320 cross section. It is  
>> not likely to be a quality control issue, but a design issue.   
>> Where the spreaders join the mast is point of high stress.   
>> Aluminum is a ductile metal, and if overstressing is not too  
>> extreme, it will tend to deform (flow) locally to releave that  
>> stress ....that's what I believe has happened here.  Still not very  
>> comforting and it shouldn't happen.
>>
>> Jack, as to Catalina switching to another vendor for masts, it  
>> probably has to do with who had the best bid for the job.   
>> Charleston Spars are used on lots of boats, not just Catalinas.   
>> Your mast gate problem seems minor compared to the above concerns,  
>> and if you get the gate plate adjusted properly and raise the sail  
>> by heading into the wind, with just a little pressure (sail) to the  
>> side away from the gate opening, that problem will go away.  Not a  
>> reason to switch from one mast manufacturer to another.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Dennis Harris C320#694
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack McDonough" <mcdonough5 at verizon.net 
>> >
>> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 7:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mainsail Hard to Raise/Lower
>>
>>
>>> Bob:
>>>
>>> As you know, I've had problems with the gate on my Charleston  
>>> Spar. One has to wonder about Charleston Spar quality. I notice  
>>> that the newer boats, at least last year's, have gone to a  
>>> different manufacturer.
>>>
>>> jack
>>> #947
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Seastream" <robert.seastream at comcast.net 
>>> >
>>> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
>>> Cc: "Henderson, David" <dhender at allstate.com>; <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com 
>>> >
>>> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 4:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Mainsail Hard to Raise/Lower
>>>
>>>
>>> David:
>>>
>>> Additionally, I'd appreciate any contact and procedural information
>>> you receive for Charleston Spar, Catalina, etc.
>>>
>>> We bought our 2002 C320 in November of 2005.  We'll be looking at  
>>> our
>>> mast ASAP.  It's certainly out of warranty, but if (worst case)  
>>> after
>>> all is said mast replacement is suggested, I'll have to see what my
>>> insurance carrier says.  I'd like to think they'd replace it as a
>>> preemptive measure, rather than wait for a failure.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Robert Seastream wrote:
>>>
>>>> David:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input.  Now I know it's not just me or my   
>>>> imagination. It gives me fresh perspective, and a concrete point  
>>>> to  proceed from.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Henderson, David wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is a somewhat delayed response to Bob Seastream’s post of a  
>>>>> couple of weeks ago.  Bob, yes, I have had issues raising and   
>>>>> lowering my in-mast (Charleston Spar) furling main on my four  
>>>>> year  old 320 (#1049), and I think I have discovered a  
>>>>> potentially  serious problem. I would love to know if others  
>>>>> have encountered  this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I noticed the problem for the first time during the 2007  
>>>>> season.   It was slightly worse this past spring when I raised  
>>>>> the main, and  now just last week when I tried to take it down  
>>>>> in preparation for haul-out, it is worse still and I couldn’t  
>>>>> get the sail down.  It appeared that the head of the sail and/or  
>>>>> the swivel first stuck at the upper spreader.  I was able to  
>>>>> force it through.  But then it became really stuck at the lower  
>>>>> spreader.  I feared that the luff tape was cut or frayed and  
>>>>> somehow hanging up in the groove in the foil.  I also wondered  
>>>>> if perhaps there was a joint in the foil  that it might be  
>>>>> catching on.
>>>>>
>>>>> This past weekend my 25 year old daughter went aloft to take a  
>>>>> look (my days of going a loft are long over).  When she opened  
>>>>> the  shackle and disconnected the sail from the swivel, the sail  
>>>>> fell  easily down through the foil.  So it was now clear that  
>>>>> the problem  was not the luff tape or the sail, but rather the  
>>>>> swivel seemed to  be the culprit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Upon closer inspection, it became clear that groove in the  
>>>>> outer  part of the mast (that the sail passes through to wind  
>>>>> onto the  foil) was slightly narrowed in the area of the  
>>>>> spreader.  And in  fact, the entire mast cavity had narrowed and  
>>>>> was pinching the  swivel enough that it could not slide up and  
>>>>> down through it.  She  then went up to the second spreader and  
>>>>> lo and behold, same  problem, just slightly less severe.
>>>>>
>>>>> The broker who sold me the boat came by today for a look, and  
>>>>> after attempting to raise and lower the swivel, he confirmed  
>>>>> the  problem. He even pointed out that the narrowing in the  
>>>>> outer mast  slot is readily visible by line of sight as you look  
>>>>> up the mast.   Our joint conclusion is that the load carried by  
>>>>> the spreaders is  slowly but surely bending the mast and  
>>>>> narrowing the slot and  cavity, and it is a progressive  
>>>>> problem.  Not being able to raise  or lower the main is the  
>>>>> first level of concern, but ultimate mast  failure is obviously  
>>>>> an even a greater concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I am told that I am out of warranty, the broker  
>>>>> immediately offered to contact Charleston Spar and Catalina on  
>>>>> my behalf. Needless to say, I anxiously await their response.   
>>>>> Meantine, I  wanted to bring this to the attention of anyone  
>>>>> else with a similar  vintage 320 that may be experiencing  
>>>>> similar mast issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Henderson
>>>>>
>>>>> Dottie B    #1049
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:16:39 -0400
>>>>> From: Robert Seastream <robert.seastream at comcast.net>
>>>>> Subject: [C320-list] Mainsail hard to raise
>>>>>
>>>>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>>>>>
>>>>> All:
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone ever had issues raising their (in mast furling)  
>>>>> mainsail
>>>>> past roughly the two thirds point, almost requiring winching to  
>>>>> raise
>>>>> it fully?
>>>>>
>>>>> We've had this issue since we bought the (used) boat.  I don't  
>>>>> think
>>>>> there's any 'burrs' in the furler track; I'd expect rips in the  
>>>>> luff
>>>>> if that were true.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering if the roller furler might have gotten bent,  
>>>>> although I
>>>>> can't imagine how.  By comparison, the roller furling jib goes  
>>>>> up  its'
>>>>> own track smooth as silk.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question is how does one access the furling mechanism for
>>>>> inspection/repair, once the mast is unstepped?  Perhaps that's a
>>>>> question for Charleston Spars.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob Seastream
>>>>> Intuition # 906
>>>>>