[C320-list] Another battery-related question

[Warren Updike]

Dean, you may be a seasoned sailor; but, if you've never cruised a boat with
refrigeration, you may not realize how much power is required.  I've found
that our #62 uses about 40-50A per day depending on weather and such. 

Without a separate starting battery, the two 4Ds have to provide start,
lighting, refer, and etc.  Astute battery management via the main switch is
necessary to keep the banks charged.  I found that a major pain and so I did
the battery upgrade somewhat as outlined on our web site.  A house bank of 2
4Ds in parallel yields close to 400A.  If the batteries are in good shape
and fully charged, I can sit at anchor for 3-4 days without charging.
That's about the most sitting we do.

So, now you have a good GP27 deep cycle battery.  I suggest you install this
as your starting battery.  The most difficult part of the upgrade project
will be making and installing the shelf for the starting battery.  There is
lots of moral support available on this list if you do this project.  

Warren & Pattie Updike
1994 C320 #62 "Warr De Mar"

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Vermeire [mailto:dean at vermeire.us] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:03 PM
To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question

Hi Mike,

I appreciate your concern.  However, you needn't worry.  I had just 
never seen a battery this big before, and it threw me off.  There is not 
a lot of need for that much capacity on a lake in Kansas.  The rest is 
not new to me.  I've been sailing for 40 years, have raced quite a bit, 
have had boats with diesel engines, outboards, etc.  I originally 
majored in Electrical Engineering (now you know why I changed majors).

Not only that, but I have this wonderful list as a resource. :-)

The only reason I emailed anyone today was that I am an hour away from 
the boat and left the manuals on the boat this weekend.

However, I do appreciate your concern and your input.

Thanks,
Dean

On 9/6/2011 7:30 PM, Mike Ott wrote:
> Dean,
> > From what I have read, I'm sorry but I have to say your scaring me. I
would
> suggest for your safety and that of your family and crew, that you stop
sailing
> and spend what ever time you need to go through every aspect of your boat.
Look
> in every locker and under every sole board, and understand where every
element
> of your mechanical and electrical system functions before you go back to
sea. 
> If you are unable to do this I would suggest you hire a surveyor or marine
> mechanic to help you through it. 
> Mike
> 'Amanda Lu'
> #508
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dean Vermeire<dean at vermeire.us>
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Sent: Tue, September 6, 2011 7:27:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question
>
> For those of you following along, we've found the answer.  In my line of
> work (software) we would call this one "PEBCAK" (Problem Exists Between
> Chair And Keyboard).
>
> Whereas I assumed that the previous owner had put in one big-ass 4D
> battery in place of two smaller batteries, I believe now that I will
> find another 4D battery in the compartment just forward of the first. 
> Who knew???  That really explains a lot of things!
>
> Thank you all for being helpful, kind, and patient.  Turns out that
> those big ballast boxes down there are actually batteries!
>
> Name Withheld to Protect the Guilty.
>
>
>
> On 9/6/2011 4:47 PM, Jeff Hare wrote:
>> This might indicate that the red power cable you hooked up initially to
your
>> new battery was the one that powers the DC Panel.
>>
>> The boat comes from the factory with 2 - 4D sized semi-deep cycle
batteries.
>> Most likely, one of them died and he just removed it from the system.
The
>> only wire he wouldn't have had any use for was the large ground Jumper
that
>> connects both Negative terminals.  He MAY have also removed the cable
from
>> position "2" on the switch to avoid having this wire hanging around which
>> would become live whenever "both" was enabled on the switch.  That would
>> pretty much explain what you're seeing.
>>
>> So... I think you need a Chunk of red 2/0 cable to connect between the
>> switch's battery position 2 and the new battery's positive post.  And a
>> chunk of Black or Yellow 2/0 cable to connect both battery Negative
>> terminals together.  Then, you're off to the races...
>>
>> BTW, your boat is only 38 hulls off of ours, so the stock wiring would be
>> virtually identical.  I would shut off the AC power and remove the wooden
>> panel where the battery switch is located and check to see if this is the
>> case.  To do that, you just need to remove a few screws that hold the
panel
>> in place (also the blocks that hold vertical upright in place).  There's
an
>> AC outlet there so that's why you should kill the AC power first, and
also
>> wouldn't hurt to disconnect either the ground wires from the batteries to
>> prevent any accidents there also..
>>
>> Cheers!
>> -Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com
>> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Dean
Vermeire
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:28 PM
>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> Yes, I selected "1", "2", but not "All" when I had only one set of cables
>> attached to the battery.  What confused me was that I had power to the
radio
>> with the appropriate battery selected, but no juice to the engine.
>>
>> All I can figure is that there is something unusual in the wiring that
was
>> done when a previous owner put in the one ginormous 4D battery, rather
than
>> two batteries.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dean
>>
>> On 9/6/2011 4:21 PM, Jane&   Ken wrote:
>>> A thought---If the 'new' group 27 was initially connected as indicated,
>> and batt 1 was selected without any start power----then the 'new' battery
>> was connected to the 'othr' cables and selector batt 2 resulted in
nothing--
>> DEAN, did you also turn the selector to batt 1 , then batt 2, then batt
all,
>> without any success??  My hull #219 had the # 1 / # 2 backward.
>>>        However, Jeff's comments are correct and should be followed when
>>> adding the two batteries--and a dedicated group 27 starting battery.
>>> Ken, OBUOY #219
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Jeff Hare<catalina at thehares.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Jeff Hare<catalina at thehares.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question
>>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>>> Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 3:31 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> This should work. If the 1-2-both switch is acting like an on/off then
the
>> new battery probably wasn't hooked up quite right.
>>> In proper hookup, both battery negatives should be connected directly
>> together. One heavy red from one battery positive should go to the "1"
post
>> of the switch, the second heavy red should go to the "2" post on the
switch.
>> The "C"ommon post of the switch goes to the starter and the "house" power
>> panel.
>>> The 4awg red cables are usually shore power charger and windlass power.
>>>
>>> Check carefully for the 3 foot section of black 2/0 gauge cable that is
>> the key ground between both batteries. If the prev owner only had one
>> battery, he may have also disconnected that jumper and left it in the
>> compartment somewhere. You need that.
>>> -jeff
>>> -jeff
>>>
>>> Dean Vermeire<dean at vermeire.us>   wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>
>>> I'm familiar with the wiring that you've described. Makes perfect sense.
>>>
>>> In my case, there was only one battery to start with. Both positive
>>> cables, as well as the two heavy ground cables and the smaller ground
>>> cable were connected to the one 4D battery. There was no jumper.
>>>
>>> When I replaced the 4D battery with a group 27 battery, I found that I
>>> had to connect all cables the way I had found them, which sounds
>>> obvious. What surprised me was that I couldn't have one battery
>>> connected to just one set of cables with the switch set to that
>>> battery and have the engine start. Basically, the two battery switch
>>> really only acts as an on / off switch when both sets of cables are
>>> connected to only one battery.
>>>
>>> On 9/6/2011 10:14 AM, Jeff Hare wrote:
>>>> We can only speculate here without some pictures of the wiring you're
>> referring to, but what may have happened was that you didn't get all the
>> grounds connected.
>>>> The starter/engine ground connects via heavy cable to the aft most
>> battery, then a jumper continues to the forward battery. The forward
battery
>> typically has the windlass ground attached also. Is it possible you
didn't
>> get the heavy ground between the batteries connected? All grounds need to
be
>> connected.
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> Dean Vermeire<dean at vermeire.us>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>
>>>> You'd think that all possible questions have been asked by now, but I
>>>> came up with another this weekend. When we got out to the boat for a
>>>> nice long weekend and were ready to head out, the engine would not
>>>> start. The batteries just didn't have enough juice for it.
>>>>
>>>> This is the first time I have had to get at the batteries on this
>>>> boat, so please forgive the stupidity here! When I got at the
>>>> batteries, I found that there was really only 1 there - a 4D truck
>>>> battery (which others have recommended lately). That's fine. Nice to
>>>> know. I ran over to the marina store (the only place open on Sunday)
>>>> and bought a Group 27 Deep Cycle battery. I will probably put in a 4D
>>>> again, since the battery tray fits a 4D perfectly.
>>>>
>>>> When I hooked up the new battery. I only connected one set of battery
>>>> cables. I put the switch on "1". The radio, instruments, VHF, etc.
>>>> all worked fine, but the engine did not turn over. Not even a click.
>>>> I switched the cables on the battery and put the switch on "2". Same
>>>> thing. Finally, I put the cables the way I had found them, with both
>>>> sets of cables hooked to the one battery. I probably put the switch
>>>> on "All", although I don't understand what difference it would make.
>>>> The engine started right up.
>>>>
>>>> The boats I have had in the past had two batteries. I made it a habit
>>>> of switching to just one battery once the engine was off, to make
>>>> sure I would have enough power to start up again later. Having both
>>>> sets of cables on one battery seems to be contrary to that idea.
>>>>
>>>> So, why didn't the engine have power when I had just one set of
>>>> cables on the battery and have the switch set to that battery number?
>>>>
>>>> Humbly,
>>>> Dean Vermeire
>>>> Moonstruck II (#847)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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