[C320-list] Another battery-related question

[Dean Vermeire]

Hi Warren,

That makes good sense.  I appreciate the input.  I have no doubt that I 
am up to the task.

Thanks,
Dean

On 9/7/2011 9:31 AM, Warren Updike wrote:
> Dean, you may be a seasoned sailor; but, if you've never cruised a boat with
> refrigeration, you may not realize how much power is required.  I've found
> that our #62 uses about 40-50A per day depending on weather and such.
>
> Without a separate starting battery, the two 4Ds have to provide start,
> lighting, refer, and etc.  Astute battery management via the main switch is
> necessary to keep the banks charged.  I found that a major pain and so I did
> the battery upgrade somewhat as outlined on our web site.  A house bank of 2
> 4Ds in parallel yields close to 400A.  If the batteries are in good shape
> and fully charged, I can sit at anchor for 3-4 days without charging.
> That's about the most sitting we do.
>
> So, now you have a good GP27 deep cycle battery.  I suggest you install this
> as your starting battery.  The most difficult part of the upgrade project
> will be making and installing the shelf for the starting battery.  There is
> lots of moral support available on this list if you do this project.
>
> Warren&  Pattie Updike
> 1994 C320 #62 "Warr De Mar"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Vermeire [mailto:dean at vermeire.us]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:03 PM
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I appreciate your concern.  However, you needn't worry.  I had just
> never seen a battery this big before, and it threw me off.  There is not
> a lot of need for that much capacity on a lake in Kansas.  The rest is
> not new to me.  I've been sailing for 40 years, have raced quite a bit,
> have had boats with diesel engines, outboards, etc.  I originally
> majored in Electrical Engineering (now you know why I changed majors).
>
> Not only that, but I have this wonderful list as a resource. :-)
>
> The only reason I emailed anyone today was that I am an hour away from
> the boat and left the manuals on the boat this weekend.
>
> However, I do appreciate your concern and your input.
>
> Thanks,
> Dean
>
> On 9/6/2011 7:30 PM, Mike Ott wrote:
>> Dean,
>>>  From what I have read, I'm sorry but I have to say your scaring me. I
> would
>> suggest for your safety and that of your family and crew, that you stop
> sailing
>> and spend what ever time you need to go through every aspect of your boat.
> Look
>> in every locker and under every sole board, and understand where every
> element
>> of your mechanical and electrical system functions before you go back to
> sea.
>> If you are unable to do this I would suggest you hire a surveyor or marine
>> mechanic to help you through it.
>> Mike
>> 'Amanda Lu'
>> #508
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Dean Vermeire<dean at vermeire.us>
>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>> Sent: Tue, September 6, 2011 7:27:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question
>>
>> For those of you following along, we've found the answer.  In my line of
>> work (software) we would call this one "PEBCAK" (Problem Exists Between
>> Chair And Keyboard).
>>
>> Whereas I assumed that the previous owner had put in one big-ass 4D
>> battery in place of two smaller batteries, I believe now that I will
>> find another 4D battery in the compartment just forward of the first.
>> Who knew???  That really explains a lot of things!
>>
>> Thank you all for being helpful, kind, and patient.  Turns out that
>> those big ballast boxes down there are actually batteries!
>>
>> Name Withheld to Protect the Guilty.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/6/2011 4:47 PM, Jeff Hare wrote:
>>> This might indicate that the red power cable you hooked up initially to
> your
>>> new battery was the one that powers the DC Panel.
>>>
>>> The boat comes from the factory with 2 - 4D sized semi-deep cycle
> batteries.
>>> Most likely, one of them died and he just removed it from the system.
> The
>>> only wire he wouldn't have had any use for was the large ground Jumper
> that
>>> connects both Negative terminals.  He MAY have also removed the cable
> from
>>> position "2" on the switch to avoid having this wire hanging around which
>>> would become live whenever "both" was enabled on the switch.  That would
>>> pretty much explain what you're seeing.
>>>
>>> So... I think you need a Chunk of red 2/0 cable to connect between the
>>> switch's battery position 2 and the new battery's positive post.  And a
>>> chunk of Black or Yellow 2/0 cable to connect both battery Negative
>>> terminals together.  Then, you're off to the races...
>>>
>>> BTW, your boat is only 38 hulls off of ours, so the stock wiring would be
>>> virtually identical.  I would shut off the AC power and remove the wooden
>>> panel where the battery switch is located and check to see if this is the
>>> case.  To do that, you just need to remove a few screws that hold the
> panel
>>> in place (also the blocks that hold vertical upright in place).  There's
> an
>>> AC outlet there so that's why you should kill the AC power first, and
> also
>>> wouldn't hurt to disconnect either the ground wires from the batteries to
>>> prevent any accidents there also..
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> -Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com
>>> [mailto:c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Dean
> Vermeire
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:28 PM
>>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> Yes, I selected "1", "2", but not "All" when I had only one set of cables
>>> attached to the battery.  What confused me was that I had power to the
> radio
>>> with the appropriate battery selected, but no juice to the engine.
>>>
>>> All I can figure is that there is something unusual in the wiring that
> was
>>> done when a previous owner put in the one ginormous 4D battery, rather
> than
>>> two batteries.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dean
>>>
>>> On 9/6/2011 4:21 PM, Jane&    Ken wrote:
>>>> A thought---If the 'new' group 27 was initially connected as indicated,
>>> and batt 1 was selected without any start power----then the 'new' battery
>>> was connected to the 'othr' cables and selector batt 2 resulted in
> nothing--
>>> DEAN, did you also turn the selector to batt 1 , then batt 2, then batt
> all,
>>> without any success??  My hull #219 had the # 1 / # 2 backward.
>>>>         However, Jeff's comments are correct and should be followed when
>>>> adding the two batteries--and a dedicated group 27 starting battery.
>>>> Ken, OBUOY #219
>>>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Jeff Hare<catalina at thehares.com>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Jeff Hare<catalina at thehares.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Another battery-related question
>>>> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
>>>> Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 3:31 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This should work. If the 1-2-both switch is acting like an on/off then
> the
>>> new battery probably wasn't hooked up quite right.
>>>> In proper hookup, both battery negatives should be connected directly
>>> together. One heavy red from one battery positive should go to the "1"
> post
>>> of the switch, the second heavy red should go to the "2" post on the
> switch.
>>> The "C"ommon post of the switch goes to the starter and the "house" power
>>> panel.
>>>> The 4awg red cables are usually shore power charger and windlass power.
>>>>
>>>> Check carefully for the 3 foot section of black 2/0 gauge cable that is
>>> the key ground between both batteries. If the prev owner only had one
>>> battery, he may have also disconnected that jumper and left it in the
>>> compartment somewhere. You need that.
>>>> -jeff
>>>> -jeff
>>>>
>>>> Dean Vermeire<dean at vermeire.us>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>
>>>> I'm familiar with the wiring that you've described. Makes perfect sense.
>>>>
>>>> In my case, there was only one battery to start with. Both positive
>>>> cables, as well as the two heavy ground cables and the smaller ground
>>>> cable were connected to the one 4D battery. There was no jumper.
>>>>
>>>> When I replaced the 4D battery with a group 27 battery, I found that I
>>>> had to connect all cables the way I had found them, which sounds
>>>> obvious. What surprised me was that I couldn't have one battery
>>>> connected to just one set of cables with the switch set to that
>>>> battery and have the engine start. Basically, the two battery switch
>>>> really only acts as an on / off switch when both sets of cables are
>>>> connected to only one battery.
>>>>
>>>> On 9/6/2011 10:14 AM, Jeff Hare wrote:
>>>>> We can only speculate here without some pictures of the wiring you're
>>> referring to, but what may have happened was that you didn't get all the
>>> grounds connected.
>>>>> The starter/engine ground connects via heavy cable to the aft most
>>> battery, then a jumper continues to the forward battery. The forward
> battery
>>> typically has the windlass ground attached also. Is it possible you
> didn't
>>> get the heavy ground between the batteries connected? All grounds need to
> be
>>> connected.
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> Dean Vermeire<dean at vermeire.us>    wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd think that all possible questions have been asked by now, but I
>>>>> came up with another this weekend. When we got out to the boat for a
>>>>> nice long weekend and were ready to head out, the engine would not
>>>>> start. The batteries just didn't have enough juice for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the first time I have had to get at the batteries on this
>>>>> boat, so please forgive the stupidity here! When I got at the
>>>>> batteries, I found that there was really only 1 there - a 4D truck
>>>>> battery (which others have recommended lately). That's fine. Nice to
>>>>> know. I ran over to the marina store (the only place open on Sunday)
>>>>> and bought a Group 27 Deep Cycle battery. I will probably put in a 4D
>>>>> again, since the battery tray fits a 4D perfectly.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I hooked up the new battery. I only connected one set of battery
>>>>> cables. I put the switch on "1". The radio, instruments, VHF, etc.
>>>>> all worked fine, but the engine did not turn over. Not even a click.
>>>>> I switched the cables on the battery and put the switch on "2". Same
>>>>> thing. Finally, I put the cables the way I had found them, with both
>>>>> sets of cables hooked to the one battery. I probably put the switch
>>>>> on "All", although I don't understand what difference it would make.
>>>>> The engine started right up.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boats I have had in the past had two batteries. I made it a habit
>>>>> of switching to just one battery once the engine was off, to make
>>>>> sure I would have enough power to start up again later. Having both
>>>>> sets of cables on one battery seems to be contrary to that idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, why didn't the engine have power when I had just one set of
>>>>> cables on the battery and have the switch set to that battery number?
>>>>>
>>>>> Humbly,
>>>>> Dean Vermeire
>>>>> Moonstruck II (#847)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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