[C320-list] C320-list Digest, Vol 4403, Issue 1
Bob Hoyt
rehoyt at gmail.com
Tue Mar 28 13:18:23 PDT 2023
@Dave - that is a very interesting thought and one that I didn't think of,
nor did the marine electricians I talked to.
I"ll check them out. Many thanks
Bob
On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 3:05 PM <c320-list-request at lists.catalina320.com>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Is the starter motor the culprit? (Bob Hoyt)
> 2. Re: Is the starter motor the culprit? (Dave Hupe)
> 3. Re: Is the starter motor the culprit? (ptormey 4square.net)
> 4. Re: Is the starter motor the culprit? (ptormey 4square.net)
> 5. Re: Is the starter motor the culprit? (mseyler at cox.net)
> 6. Re: Is the starter motor the culprit? (Troy Dunn)
> 7. Re: Is the starter motor the culprit? (Troy Dunn)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 15:34:24 -0500
> From: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> Subject: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
> Message-ID:
> <CAE9GL2kkfXmX18eDO=
> OcAwpZJXD_J7tXEi5Gsbn5mGjOCY1Cow at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> In this month's Cruising World there is a story (Renovating Your Starter
> Motor) about a starter motor that was requiring more amps to start over
> time. The owner took it apart and found it was full of "gunk". This could
> be my problem. I queried the forum about a year ago that a group 27
> dedicated starting battery would turn over but not start my Perkins M30
> engine. I then tested my existing batteries that consist of two pairs of 6
> volt Duracell golf cart batteries in series. Similarly, the house pair and
> the motor pair will turn over but not start the engine. It takes all four
> batteries to start the engine. They are new and read about 12.8 volts.
> The voltage at the starter motor is the same as at the battery. After
> activating the glow plugs and starting the engine the voltage drops to
> 11.7. The resistance across the starter motor with everything off is 9.92 M
> which I believe is too high. All battery terminals and engine ground have
> been cleaned and look good
> 1. Is there enough proof to pull the starter out or should I try to connect
> a separate 12 volt battery to the starter with battery cables to see if
> that will start the engine as the first test?
> 2. How hard is it to pull the starter motor?
> 3. I cannot find any tech articles about this in the forum archives
> 4. My situation is complicated by the fact that my boat is at the Navy base
> in Pensacola and it is very hard to get contractors to make a service call
> 4. Also, the sole starter motor repair shop shut its doors this year.
>
> I would appreciate any guidance
>
> Bob Hoyt
> "Ikigai"
> 1994 C-320 Hull #58
> Pensacola, FL
>
> --
>
> *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
>
> *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
>
> *Virginia Commonwealth University*
>
> *Richmond, VA*
>
>
> *CAPT (Ret) USN*
>
> InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
>
> nocodedatascience.net
> rehoyt at gmail.com
>
> Cell: 850-384-5235
>
> QR Code for CV
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 21:00:40 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Dave Hupe <hoopdtwo at yahoo.com>
> To: C320-List at Catalina320.com
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
> Message-ID: <871045551.1474767.1679950840262 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Bob-
> Are you sure that your glow plugs are good? When I had starting problems
> and tested my plugs I found that 2 of the 3 were bad. They are easy to test
> in place and replacing them made a huge improvement.?
> Dave Hupe?1994 C320 #32Holland, MI
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 4:34 PM, Bob Hoyt via C320-list<
> c320-list at lists.catalina320.com> wrote: In this month's Cruising World
> there is a story (Renovating Your Starter
> Motor) about a starter motor that was requiring more amps to start over
> time. The owner took it apart and found it was full of "gunk". This could
> be my problem. I queried the forum about a year ago that a group 27
> dedicated starting battery would turn over but not start my Perkins M30
> engine. I then tested my existing batteries that consist of two pairs of 6
> volt Duracell golf cart batteries in series. Similarly, the house pair and
> the motor pair will turn over but not start the engine. It takes all four
> batteries to start the engine. They are new? and read about 12.8? volts.
> The voltage at the starter motor is the same as at the battery. After
> activating the glow plugs and starting the engine the voltage drops to
> 11.7. The resistance across the starter motor with everything off is 9.92 M
> which I believe is too high.? All battery terminals and engine ground have
> been cleaned and look good
> 1. Is there enough proof to pull the starter out or should I try to connect
> a separate 12 volt battery to the starter? with battery cables to see if
> that will start the engine as the first test?
> 2. How hard is it to pull the starter motor?
> 3. I cannot find any tech articles about this in the forum archives
> 4. My situation is complicated by the fact that my boat is at the Navy base
> in Pensacola and it is very hard to get contractors to make a? service call
> 4. Also, the sole starter motor repair shop shut its doors this year.
>
> I would appreciate any guidance
>
> Bob Hoyt
> "Ikigai"
> 1994 C-320 Hull #58
> Pensacola, FL
>
> --
>
> *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
>
> *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
>
> *Virginia Commonwealth University*
>
> *Richmond, VA*
>
>
> *CAPT (Ret) USN*
>
> InformaticsEducation.org? <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
>
> nocodedatascience.net
> rehoyt at gmail.com
>
> Cell: 850-384-5235
>
> QR Code for CV
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 21:48:45 +0000
> From: ptormey 4square.net <ptormey at 4square.net>
> To: "C320-List at Catalina320.com" <C320-List at Catalina320.com>,
> "c320-list at lists.catalina320.com" <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> >
> Cc: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
> Message-ID:
> <
> BN0P221MB0590094FC8FDE6A7EF981DB8F68B9 at BN0P221MB0590.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The gunk in a starter motor is likely the dust from the brushes mixed with
> some stray oil.
>
> When we use to rebuild motors (back in my Navy days) the first thing was
> to wash them out. Common DC motors have brushes made of some carbon mix
> that conducts the juice onto the rotor through a commutator. The bushes
> wear down by design; carbon is soft. The brushes also wear down the
> commutator which is a soft copper series of 'fingers' on the rotor.
>
> The stray carbon dust actually shorts out the juice that's supposed to get
> to the rotor AND as the brushes wear down the spring that holds them in
> place give up some of the pressure making a weaker connection.
>
> The symptom is that the starter turns slower, takes more amps and can
> usually be temporality boosted with a higher voltage.
>
> Fortunately, stater motors are designed to be rebuild. They clean them up,
> check for any shorts, undercut the commutator "fingers", replace any
> bearing as needed and probably replace the solenoid that kicks the starter
> gear into the flywheel gears. My guy even painted it Yanmar grey (7 years
> ago $125 USD) with overnight delivery!
>
>
>
> Pat
> Pat Tormey
> s/v Blues Skies
> Newport RI
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
> Bob Hoyt via C320-list
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:34 PM
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> Cc: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
>
> In this month's Cruising World there is a story (Renovating Your Starter
> Motor) about a starter motor that was requiring more amps to start over
> time. The owner took it apart and found it was full of "gunk". This could
> be my problem. I queried the forum about a year ago that a group 27
> dedicated starting battery would turn over but not start my Perkins M30
> engine. I then tested my existing batteries that consist of two pairs of 6
> volt Duracell golf cart batteries in series. Similarly, the house pair and
> the motor pair will turn over but not start the engine. It takes all four
> batteries to start the engine. They are new and read about 12.8 volts.
> The voltage at the starter motor is the same as at the battery. After
> activating the glow plugs and starting the engine the voltage drops to
> 11.7. The resistance across the starter motor with everything off is 9.92 M
> which I believe is too high. All battery terminals and engine ground have
> been cleaned and look good 1. Is there enough proof to pull the starter out
> or should I try to connect a separate 12 volt battery to the starter with
> battery cables to see if that will start the engine as the first test?
> 2. How hard is it to pull the starter motor?
> 3. I cannot find any tech articles about this in the forum archives 4. My
> situation is complicated by the fact that my boat is at the Navy base in
> Pensacola and it is very hard to get contractors to make a service call 4.
> Also, the sole starter motor repair shop shut its doors this year.
>
> I would appreciate any guidance
>
> Bob Hoyt
> "Ikigai"
> 1994 C-320 Hull #58
> Pensacola, FL
>
> --
>
> *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
>
> *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
>
> *Virginia Commonwealth University*
>
> *Richmond, VA*
>
>
> *CAPT (Ret) USN*
>
> InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
>
> nocodedatascience.net
> rehoyt at gmail.com
>
> Cell: 850-384-5235
>
> QR Code for CV
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 21:48:45 +0000
> From: ptormey 4square.net <ptormey at 4square.net>
> To: "C320-List at Catalina320.com" <C320-List at Catalina320.com>,
> "c320-list at lists.catalina320.com" <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> >
> Cc: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
> Message-ID:
> <
> BN0P221MB0590094FC8FDE6A7EF981DB8F68B9 at BN0P221MB0590.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The gunk in a starter motor is likely the dust from the brushes mixed with
> some stray oil.
>
> When we use to rebuild motors (back in my Navy days) the first thing was
> to wash them out. Common DC motors have brushes made of some carbon mix
> that conducts the juice onto the rotor through a commutator. The bushes
> wear down by design; carbon is soft. The brushes also wear down the
> commutator which is a soft copper series of 'fingers' on the rotor.
>
> The stray carbon dust actually shorts out the juice that's supposed to get
> to the rotor AND as the brushes wear down the spring that holds them in
> place give up some of the pressure making a weaker connection.
>
> The symptom is that the starter turns slower, takes more amps and can
> usually be temporality boosted with a higher voltage.
>
> Fortunately, stater motors are designed to be rebuild. They clean them up,
> check for any shorts, undercut the commutator "fingers", replace any
> bearing as needed and probably replace the solenoid that kicks the starter
> gear into the flywheel gears. My guy even painted it Yanmar grey (7 years
> ago $125 USD) with overnight delivery!
>
>
>
> Pat
> Pat Tormey
> s/v Blues Skies
> Newport RI
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
> Bob Hoyt via C320-list
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:34 PM
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> Cc: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
>
> In this month's Cruising World there is a story (Renovating Your Starter
> Motor) about a starter motor that was requiring more amps to start over
> time. The owner took it apart and found it was full of "gunk". This could
> be my problem. I queried the forum about a year ago that a group 27
> dedicated starting battery would turn over but not start my Perkins M30
> engine. I then tested my existing batteries that consist of two pairs of 6
> volt Duracell golf cart batteries in series. Similarly, the house pair and
> the motor pair will turn over but not start the engine. It takes all four
> batteries to start the engine. They are new and read about 12.8 volts.
> The voltage at the starter motor is the same as at the battery. After
> activating the glow plugs and starting the engine the voltage drops to
> 11.7. The resistance across the starter motor with everything off is 9.92 M
> which I believe is too high. All battery terminals and engine ground have
> been cleaned and look good 1. Is there enough proof to pull the starter out
> or should I try to connect a separate 12 volt battery to the starter with
> battery cables to see if that will start the engine as the first test?
> 2. How hard is it to pull the starter motor?
> 3. I cannot find any tech articles about this in the forum archives 4. My
> situation is complicated by the fact that my boat is at the Navy base in
> Pensacola and it is very hard to get contractors to make a service call 4.
> Also, the sole starter motor repair shop shut its doors this year.
>
> I would appreciate any guidance
>
> Bob Hoyt
> "Ikigai"
> 1994 C-320 Hull #58
> Pensacola, FL
>
> --
>
> *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
>
> *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
>
> *Virginia Commonwealth University*
>
> *Richmond, VA*
>
>
> *CAPT (Ret) USN*
>
> InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
>
> nocodedatascience.net
> rehoyt at gmail.com
>
> Cell: 850-384-5235
>
> QR Code for CV
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:08:29 -0500
> From: <mseyler at cox.net>
> To: <C320-List at Catalina320.com>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
> Message-ID: <019c01d960f8$aa7c2980$ff747c80$@cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Bob,
>
> Although I haven't pulled the starter on my M30, it doesn't look like it
> should be that difficult. Access from the front is tight, but you could
> remove the alternator to get better access. You also may be able to reach
> around from the aft cabin. I would completely disconnect the battery
> cables at the battery before you start, so you don't accidentally short out
> the positive cables to the engine as ground. And I would label all of the
> wires with tape, and either draw a diagram or take a photo of which wire
> went where to avoid confusion on the reinstallation. (This is especially
> important if you remove the alternator, too, and have more wires involved.)
>
> Once the starter is out, you could take is to the shop for repair or a
> rebuild. As Pat Tormey pointed out, starters usually can be rebuilt unless
> they are heavily corroded or something breaks in two.
>
> But if you aren't in a position to pull the starter yourself, it probably
> makes more sense to replace it than to try to repair it. A quick search
> shows that parts4engines.com has a starter for the Perama M30 on sale
> for about $115. Shipping to Pensacola would probably be another $35-$45.
> If you need to get a contractor out there to remove it, then the cost for a
> second service call to install the old starter after repair might be almost
> as much as the cost of a new starter that could have been installed on the
> same service call where the old one came out.
>
> Good luck with this project, and let us know what you ultimately find out.
>
> Mark Seyler
> S/V Reality,
> Catalina 320, #232
> New Orleans, LA
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C320-list <c320-list-bounces at lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of
> Bob Hoyt via C320-list
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 3:34 PM
> To: c320-list at lists.catalina320.com
> Cc: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>
> Subject: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
>
> In this month's Cruising World there is a story (Renovating Your Starter
> Motor) about a starter motor that was requiring more amps to start over
> time. The owner took it apart and found it was full of "gunk". This could
> be my problem. I queried the forum about a year ago that a group 27
> dedicated starting battery would turn over but not start my Perkins M30
> engine. I then tested my existing batteries that consist of two pairs of 6
> volt Duracell golf cart batteries in series. Similarly, the house pair and
> the motor pair will turn over but not start the engine. It takes all four
> batteries to start the engine. They are new and read about 12.8 volts.
> The voltage at the starter motor is the same as at the battery. After
> activating the glow plugs and starting the engine the voltage drops to
> 11.7. The resistance across the starter motor with everything off is 9.92 M
> which I believe is too high. All battery terminals and engine ground have
> been cleaned and look good 1. Is there enough proof to pull the starter out
> or should I try to connect a separate 12 volt battery to the starter with
> battery cables to see if that will start the engine as the first test?
> 2. How hard is it to pull the starter motor?
> 3. I cannot find any tech articles about this in the forum archives 4. My
> situation is complicated by the fact that my boat is at the Navy base in
> Pensacola and it is very hard to get contractors to make a service call 4.
> Also, the sole starter motor repair shop shut its doors this year.
>
> I would appreciate any guidance
>
> Bob Hoyt
> "Ikigai"
> 1994 C-320 Hull #58
> Pensacola, FL
>
> --
>
> *Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
>
> *Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
>
> *Virginia Commonwealth University*
>
> *Richmond, VA*
>
>
> *CAPT (Ret) USN*
>
> InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
>
> nocodedatascience.net
> rehoyt at gmail.com
>
> Cell: 850-384-5235
>
> QR Code for CV
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 18:08:51 -0400
> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Cc: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>, "c320-list at lists.catalina320.com"
> <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>, "ptormey 4square.net"
> <ptormey at 4square.net>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+rGV8Y1OSE8N=
> X2Ga1kfVBHo-2_tH7U5riqqMTPOtttP9bPCQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Bob,
>
> We have a Yanmar 3GM30F so I don?t have any direct experience with your
> engine. Having said that, I have never met a starter that was difficult
> to remove or install from the engine. Getting the starter out of the 320
> is a little more challenging than on most cars due to normal boat yoga
> required. Although I did recently replace a starter on a German SUV that
> required removing wiring harnesses and the intake manifold to get to,
> so?not every car is simple either I suppose?
>
> The short answer to your question about testing is "probably not". The
> longer answer is that troubleshooting the starting circuit for the solenoid
> and the motor itself is highly dependent on the installation and engine.
> If the wiring for your starter is anything like the hulls with a yanmar
> installed?.suspect the wiring.
>
> FWIW
>
> Troy Dunn
> Hull #514
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 18:08:51 -0400
> From: Troy Dunn <troutwarrior at gmail.com>
> To: C320-List at catalina320.com
> Cc: Bob Hoyt <rehoyt at gmail.com>, "c320-list at lists.catalina320.com"
> <c320-list at lists.catalina320.com>, "ptormey 4square.net"
> <ptormey at 4square.net>
> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Is the starter motor the culprit?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+rGV8Y1OSE8N=
> X2Ga1kfVBHo-2_tH7U5riqqMTPOtttP9bPCQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Bob,
>
> We have a Yanmar 3GM30F so I don?t have any direct experience with your
> engine. Having said that, I have never met a starter that was difficult
> to remove or install from the engine. Getting the starter out of the 320
> is a little more challenging than on most cars due to normal boat yoga
> required. Although I did recently replace a starter on a German SUV that
> required removing wiring harnesses and the intake manifold to get to,
> so?not every car is simple either I suppose?
>
> The short answer to your question about testing is "probably not". The
> longer answer is that troubleshooting the starting circuit for the solenoid
> and the motor itself is highly dependent on the installation and engine.
> If the wiring for your starter is anything like the hulls with a yanmar
> installed?.suspect the wiring.
>
> FWIW
>
> Troy Dunn
> Hull #514
>
>
> End of C320-list Digest, Vol 4403, Issue 1
> ******************************************
>
--
*Robert (Bob) Hoyt MD, FACP, FAMIA, ABPM-CI*
*Associate Clinical Professor, Department of Internal Medicine*
*Virginia Commonwealth University*
*Richmond, VA*
*CAPT (Ret) USN*
InformaticsEducation.org <http://InformaticsEducation.org>
nocodedatascience.net
rehoyt at gmail.com
Cell: 850-384-5235
QR Code for CV
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